Perspectives on Amoris Laetitia

(Today I put up a couple of perspective on the Pope’s recent Apostolic Exhortation. I will reprint Mark Mallett’s recent piece, the Center of Truth, in its entirety. I also want to recommend to you the marvelous work of Kazakhstan Bishop Athanasius Schneider, which is a fully respectful and incisive examination of the issues in the document, one of the best I have seen. Tomorrow, I will post a piece by Dan Lynch, which is much more overtly critical, though still, I think, in its latest iteration, within the realm of fair comment. As I mentioned earlier, none of these pieces necessarily represent my opinion, but are serious voices I think should be heard. My opinion remains the same as it was when I wrote The Fullness of the Storm, the Springtime of the Gospel.

I have also put up new videos of my presentation, followed by the question and answer session in Wells, Maine last month in the “Visit Videos” link at the top black bar. But for now, let’s take a look at Mark Mallett’s take on Amoris Laetitia. – CJ

The Center of Truth

By Mark Mallett

I have received many letters asking me to comment on Amoris Laetitia, the Pope’s recent Apostolic Exhortation. I have done so in a new section in the greater context of this writing from July 29th, 2015. If I had a trumpet, I would blare this writing through it… 

 

I often hear both Catholics and Protestants say that our differences really don’t matter; that we believe in Jesus Christ, and that is all that matters. Certainly, we must recognize in this statement the authentic ground of true ecumenism, [1]cf. Authentic Ecumenism  which is indeed the confession and commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord. As St. John says:

Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God… whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him. (First reading)

But we must also immediately ask what it means to “believe in Jesus Christ”? St. James was clear that faith in Christ without “works” was a dead faith. [2]cf. James 2:17 But then that raises another question: what “works” are of God and which aren’t? Is handing out condoms to third world countries a work of mercy? Is helping a young teenage girl to procure an abortion a work of God? Is marrying two men who are attracted to each other a work of love?

The fact is, there are more and more “Christians” in our day who would answer “yes” to the above. And yet, according to the moral teaching of the Catholic Church, these acts would be considered grave sins. Moreover, in those acts which constitute “mortal sin”, the Scriptures are clear that “those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” [3]cf. Gal 5:21 Indeed, Jesus warns:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. (Matt 7:21)

It would seem then that truth—what is God’s will and what isn’t—is at the very core of Christian salvation, closely connected to “faith in Christ”. Indeed,

Salvation is found in the truth.Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 851

Or as St. John Paul II said,

A close connection is made between eternal life and obedience to God’s commandments: God’s commandments show man the path of life and they lead to it. —SAINT JOHN PAUL II, Veritatis Splendor, n. 12

 

THE DIABOLICAL DISORIENTATION

Thus, we have arrived at the hour where, as John Paul II repeated, the greatest sin in the world today is the loss of the sense of sin. Again, the most deceptive and insidious form of lawlessness is not gangs roving the streets, but judges who overturn the natural law, clergy who avoid moral issues on the pulpit, and Christians who turn a blind eye to immorality so as to “keep the peace” and be “tolerant.” Thus, whether through judicial activism or through silence, lawlessness spreads across the earth like a thick, dark vapor. All of this is possible if mankind, and even the elect, can be persuaded that there is really no such thing as moral absolutes—that which is, in fact, the very bedrock of Christianity.

Indeed, the Great Deception in our time is not to do away with goodness, but to redefine it so that which is evil is considered a genuine good. Call abortion a “right”; same sex-marriage “just”; euthanasia “mercy”; suicide “courageous”; pornography “art”; and fornication “love.” In this way, the moral order is not abolished, but simply turned upside down. In fact, what is happening physically right now upon the earth—the reversal of the poles such that geometric north is becoming south, and vice versa—is happening spiritually.

Vast sectors of society are confused about what is right and what is wrong, and are at the mercy of those with the power to “create” opinion and impose it on others. —POPE JOHN PAUL II, Cherry Creek State Park Homily, Denver, Colorado, 1993

If the Catechism teaches that “the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers”, [4]cf. CCC, n. 675 and that she must “follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection” [5]cf. CCC, n. 677 then the trial, which has already begun, is to bring about what Sr. Lucia of Fatima warned was a coming “diabolical disorientation”—a fog of confusion, uncertainty, and ambiguity over the faith. And so it was before the Passion of Jesus. “What is truth?” Pilate asked? [6]cf. John 18:38 Likewise today, our world carelessly tosses about truth as though it were ours to define, mould, and reshape. “What is truth?” our Supreme Court judges say, as they fulfill the words of Pope Benedict who warned of a growing…

…dictatorship of relativism that recognizes nothing as definite, and which leaves as the ultimate measure only one’s ego and desires. Having a clear faith, according to the credo of the Church, is often labeled as fundamentalism. Yet, relativism, that is, letting oneself be tossed and ‘swept along by every wind of teaching’, appears the sole attitude acceptable to today’s standards. —Cardinal Ratzinger (POPE BENEDICT XVI) pre-conclave Homily, April 18th, 2005

 

A WARNING

When I wrote Mere Men, there was a spirit of boldness that came over me. In no way do I intend to be “triumphalistic” when I assert the fact that the Catholic Church alone contains the “fullness of truth” by virtue of Christ’s will and the Holy Spirit’s power. Rather, it is a warning—an urgent warning to both Catholics and non-Catholics alike, that the Great Deception in our times is about to take a rapid and exponential turn into darkness that will sweep multitudes away. That is, multitudes who…

…have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved. Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

And therefore, let me repeat again what St. Paul states two sentences later as the antidote to the Antichrist:

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. (2 Thess 2:15)

Christian, are you listening to what the Apostle is saying? How can you stand firm unless you know what those “traditions” are? How can you stand firm unless you search for that which has been passed on both orally and in writing? Where can one find these objective truths?

The answer, again, is the Catholic Church. Ah! But here is part of the trial that will shake the faith of believers as much as Christ’s Passion shook the faith of His followers. The Church, too, will appear to be a scandal, [7]cf. The Scandal  a sign of contradiction because of the bleeding wounds of her sins, just as Christ’s bruised and bloodied body, pierced for our sins, was a scandal to His followers. The question is whether we will run from the Cross, or stand beneath it? Will we jump ship onto the raft of individualism, or sail through the Storm upon the battered Barque of Peter, which Christ Himself launched through the Great Commission? [8]cf. Matt 28:18-20

Now is the hour of the Church’s trial, the testing and sifting of the weeds from the wheat, the sheep from the goats.

 

THE LISTING BARQUE

During the course of Pope Francis’ papacy, many readers know that I have defended the Holy Father’s more ambiguous statements, usually made in casual interviews, without harm to the Faith. That is, I have taken what are seemingly unorthodox statements and explained them in the only way we should: in light of Sacred Tradition. Recently, Cardinal Raymond Burke reaffirmed this approach to papal statements, including the most recent Apostolic Exhortation, Amoris Laetitia

The only key to the correct interpretation of Amoris Laetitia is the constant teaching of the Church and her discipline that safeguards and fosters this teaching. —Cardinal Raymond Burke, National Catholic Register, April 12th, 2016; ncregister.com

This is extremely important, because what is being said here is that the center of truth does not and cannot change. Jesus said, “I am the truth”—He, who is eternal, does not change. Thus, the truths of the natural moral law are immutable, because they spring from the very nature of God, of the communion of Persons in the Holy Trinity, and the revelations pertaining to how God created mankind in relation to Himself, one another, and creation. Thus, not even a pope can change the Public Revelation of Jesus Christ, what we call “Sacred Tradition.”

Which is why the following statement in the Exhortation is also an important key to its interpretation:

I would make it clear that not all discussions of doctrinal, moral or pastoral issues need to be settled by interventions of the magisterium. —POPE FRANCIS, Amoris Laetitia, n. 3; www.vatican.va

That is to say that the Exhortation, while offering valuable and helpful reflections on family life, is a blend of both the pope’s personal non-magisterial ideas as well as reinforcement of Church teaching. That is to say, there is no change in doctrine—a testament that the Chair of Peter is rock (see The Chair of Rock).

But it is also, at times, a stumbling stone. Since the release of the Exhortation, there have been plenty of commentaries, including Cardinal Burke’s, that point out troubling ambiguities in the document when it comes to the pastoral application of Church teaching. In fact, brothers and sisters, some ambiguities simply cannot pass through the “key” of Sacred Tradition without being rejected altogether. And this is really a startling moment for our generation as we have been blessed with fairly unambiguous papal instruction for a very long time. And now, we are faced with a “family crisis” where many good, faithful defenders of Catholicism find themselves in disagreement with the Pope. But here too is a test: will we face these disagreements by abandoning the Barque of Peter, as did Martin Luther? Will we separate from Rome as the St. Pius X Society did? Or will we, like Paul, approach the Holy Father with these ambiguities in a spirit of truth and love in what I call a “Peter and Paul moment”, when Paul corrected the first pope—not for a doctrinal error—but for creating a scandal in his pastoral approach:

…when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he clearly was wrong. (Galatians 2:11)

Here, we have another key: Paul remained at the center of truth by both holding fast to the immutable truth, while at the same time remaining in communion with the pope. Brothers and sisters, I am not downplaying the possible harm and scandal these ambiguities could create. Some have even suggested that this may cause a schism in the Church. [9]cf. “The Spaemann Interview”, cfnews.org But that depends on what the clergy will do with Amoris Laetitia. If suddenly bishops, if not entire conferences of bishops, begin to apply this Exhortation in ways that are a break from Sacred Tradition, then I suggest that these men had already begun, in some fashion, to break away from the sure and clear norms of the Catholic Church. This is to say that the Holy Spirit, who has been sent to lead the Church into all truth, may very well have permitted all of this in order to purify and prune the Body of Christ of the dead branches.

Quoting again Cardinal Raymond Burke, whose commentary is perhaps the best I’ve read on Amoris Laetitia, he says:

How, then, is the document to be received? First of all, it should be received with the profound respect owed to the Roman pontiff as the Vicar of Christ, in the words of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council: “the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity of both the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful” (Lumen Gentium, 23). Certain commentators confuse such respect with a supposed obligation to “believe with divine and Catholic faith” (Canon 750, § 1) everything contained in the document. But the Catholic Church, while insisting on the respect owed to the Petrine office as instituted by Our Lord himself, has never held that every utterance of the Successor of St. Peter should be received as part of her infallible magisterium. —Cardinal Raymond Burke, National Catholic Register, April 12th, 2016; ncregister.com

And so, I will repeat what I have said countless times in other writings. Remain in communion with the Pope, but faithful to Jesus Christ, which is faithfulness to Sacred Tradition. Jesus is still the one building the Church, and my faith is in Him that He will never, ever abandon His bride.

The post Pentecost Peter… is that same Peter who, for fear of the Jews, belied his Christian freedom (Galatians 2 11–14); he is at once a rock and a stumbling-block. And has it not been thus throughout the history of the Church that the Pope, the successor of Peter, has been at once Petra and Skandalon—both the rock of God and a stumbling block? —POPE BENEDICT XIV, from Das neue Volk Gottes, p. 80ff

 

RETURNING TO THE CENTER

If Jesus compared listening to His words and acting upon them as one who builds his house on rock, then dear brother and sister, do everything you can to be faithful to every word of Christ. Return to the center of truth. Return to everything that Jesus has bequeathed to the Church, to “every spiritual blessing in the heavens” [10]cf. Eph 1:3 intended for our edification, encouragement and strength. That is, the sure apostolic teachings of the Faith, as outlined in the Catechism; the charisms of the Holy Spirit, including tongues, healing, and prophecy; the Sacraments, especially Confession and the Eucharist; proper respect and expression of the Church’s universal prayer, the Liturgy; and the Great Commandment to love God and one’s neighbour.

The Church, in many quarters, has drifted from its center, and the fruit of this is division. And what a divided mess is it! There are those Catholics who serve the poor, but neglect to feed the spiritual food of the Faith. There are Catholics who hold fast to the ancient forms of Liturgy, while rejecting the charisms of the Holy Spirit. [11]cf. Charismatic? Part IV  There are “charismatic” Christians who reject the rich heritage of our liturgical and private devotions. There are theologians who teach the Word of God but reject the Mother who carried Him; apologists who defend the Word but despise the words of prophecy and so-called “private revelation.” There are those who come to Mass every Sunday, but pick and choose the moral teachings they’ll live between Monday and Saturday.

This will no longer be in the era to come! That which is built on sand—on subjective sands—will come crashing down in this coming trial, and a purified Bride will emerge “of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing.” [12]cf. Phil 2:2 There will be, “one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all.” [13]cf. Eph 4:5 The Church shattered, bruised, divided and splintered will once again become evangelical: she will witness to all the nations; she will be pentecostal: living as in a “new Pentecost”; she will be catholic: truly universal; she will be sacramental: living from the Eucharist; she will be apostolic: faithful to the teachings of Sacred Tradition; and she will be holy: living in the Divine Will, which will “be done on earth as it is in heaven.”

If Jesus said “they shall know you are my disciples by your love for one another,” then the Good Shepherd will lead us to the center of truth, which is the center of unity, and the well-spring of authentic love. But first, He will lead us through the Valley of the Shadow of Death in order to purify His Church of this diabolical division.

Satan may adopt the more alarming weapons of deceit—he may hide himself—he may attempt to seduce us in little things, and so to move the Church, not all at once, but by little and little from her true position. I do believe he has done much in this way in the course of the last few centuries… It is his policy to split us up and divide us, to dislodge us gradually from our rock of strength. And if there is to be a persecution, perhaps it will be then; then, perhaps, when we are all of us in all parts of Christendom so divided, and so reduced, so full of schism, so close upon heresy. When we have cast ourselves upon the world and depend for protection upon it, and have given up our independence and our strength, then [Antichrist] will burst upon us in fury as far as God allows him. Blessed John Henry Newman, Sermon IV: The Persecution of Antichrist

 

About charliej373

Charlie Johnston is a former newspaper editor, radio talk show host and political consultant. From Feb. 11, 2011 to Aug. 21, 2012, he walked 3,200 miles across the country, sleeping in the woods, meeting people and praying as he went. He has received prophetic visitation all his life, which he has vetted through a trio of priests over the last 20 years, and now speaks publicly about on this site. Yet he emphasizes that we find God most surely through the ordinary, doing the little things we should with faith and fidelity. Hence the name, The Next Right Step. The visitations inform his work, but are not the focus of it. He lives in the Archdiocese of Denver in the United States.
This entry was posted in Church Governance, Discernment, Family of God, Obedience, Solidarity, The Storm and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

452 Responses to Perspectives on Amoris Laetitia

  1. Joe Crozier says:

    Great commentary by Mark. It feels like I am going through a growth spurt. At 62 it us a little late in the day for such things but as they say “better late than never.” Garabandal, Charlie, the Papacy etc it’s all changing…….or is it me?

    Liked by 9 people

    • charliej373 says:

      We’re all going through a growth spurt, Joe!

      Liked by 7 people

    • Fran says:

      Joe, this is one of the reasons I read Charlies posts, comment here, and like to read others comments (as well as read posts by Mark Mallett or others who seem to have a certain wisdom and steadiness). It helps me to see things more clearly, and refine my own thinking. It is a sharing of the Spirit, that is what I believe the Communion of Saints is all about, and it really does feel like “growth” to me.

      Liked by 10 people

    • Joe Crozier says:

      Today we had a beautiful and very well attended Mother’s Day Mass. Beautiful contemporary hymns were sung a moving mothers day homily was given (our PPs mum is in the Pillipines) and and the priest asked the mums to stand while all the children gathered at the front after mass and sang their version of You Are My Sunshine. Each verse sang about the great qualities of their mums and how much they loved them and ended with lines like “I will do more jobs for you” and “I will eat my vegies for you.” We gave the mums and kids a big applause and the recessional hymn was to Our Lady; “Ave Maria Gratia Plena, Dominus tecum, Benedicta tu. This indeed was Amoris Laetitia. Each mum was given a scroll of appreciation on leaving the church. Another sad old Irish song says it all “A mother’s love’s a blessing.”
      Then I came home and somehow got involved with The Storm and the Rescue which led me to the link below.
      “http://www.ourlady.ca/info/chastisement.htm
      Just reminded me we don’t have much time left til its all through. Then you can put your feet up, Charlie, and watch the grandees play.

      Liked by 3 people

  2. Amy says:

    I wish I would have a growth spurt! I often wonder how I can have the life experiences I’ve had and not be holier. Ha! Maybe it’s a midlife crisis. I will turn 40 in July. 🙂

    Liked by 8 people

  3. Fera Henri says:

    I have never been inspired as these days. Today, after attending Mass and praying the rosary, this is what came to me: to put the Saints in charge. I am going to put the Saints in charge of the house, the yards, the garage, the food, the water, gardening, the visitors,… St. Therese for cabinet of tea. St. Anthony of Padua for the corner beside the kitchen sink, St. Francis for one corner of the backyard, St. Anne (our Grandma) for needleworks, houseworks, etc… and I am going to place a picture or a statue of the saint in the place he or she is in charge of, and say: “now you are in charge, I am depending on you”. I am very happy with this idea, for I believe it came from Our Lady and Our Lord.

    Liked by 16 people

  4. Deborah Seiter says:

    Thank you for posting these, Charlie. I had already read Mark’s piece and was very taken with all he had to say. I have tried to read the bishop’s statement but found it a little difficult for this pea sized brain to get through.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. Meriadoc says:

    I thought the best part of A.L. was chapter 4 (“Love in Marriage”). It’s so good, it ought to be published as a stand-alone pamphlet.

    The beginning sections in which Francis analyzes that evergreen passage from I Corinthians were brilliant in conception–it was almost like the Pope was saying, “Hey, remember this little reading that so many of you heard on your wedding day? You may well have been too distracted to concentrate on the words back then. Let’s revisit them attentively now, since you know the joys and trials of marriage from lived experience!” In execution, this section was as brilliant as it was simple: just pull out the old Greek dictionary, state the definitions, and amplify their meaning for the purposes of joyful living together. Any husband or wife of good will HAS to know what he’s talking about. This part of the exhortation–it seems to me–was an unambiguous success. I wish people would make more of it. Pope Francis’s disjointed style drives many of us–me included–nuts. Yet when he’s done something really fine, we should applaud it.

    Liked by 11 people

  6. phillip frank says:

    Mark lead me here to your site, so I am indebted to him.
    There are few blogs on the internet so profoundly well researched as his are and I appreciate that as an amature scientist.
    I read this earlier today and thought about linking it here.
    No need to now!

    Liked by 7 people

  7. Julia says:

    God bless Mark Mallet. And to think he had already written the whole shebang before the Synod.

    It is still ok to keep to our traditional beliefs. And of course Cardinal Burke is with us as well.

    “As for me and my household, I will stay with the Lord,” Let us wait on the Lord to resolve all.

    Liked by 4 people

  8. jlynnbyrd says:

    Charlie you are looking quite debonair at your Maine event. I sense a glow of Proud Father about you. I wish your son, and his fiancée a blessed life together filled with love.
    I bet your Best Man toast will be a tear jerker and I am so happy for you and your beautiful family. Enjoy!!

    Liked by 4 people

  9. janet333 says:

    Bishop Athanasius Schneider….”The Pope says in AL, no. 305 that, “because of forms of conditioning and mitigating factors, it is possible that in an objective situation of sin – which may not be subjectively culpable, or fully such – a person can be living in God’s grace, can love and can also grow in the life of grace and charity, while receiving the Church’s help to this end.” In note 351, the Pope clarifies his statement by saying that “in some cases, this may include the help of the sacraments”

    Some think that ALfn 351 authorises holy Communion for Catholics in irregular marriages. But where does Pope Francis say this? The pope says that Catholics in irregular unions need the help of the sacraments…which of course they do,…but he does not say ALL of the sacraments, and especially, not sacraments for which they are ineligible……

    This is what Pope Francis wrote…. “In certain cases, this can include the help of the sacraments. Hence, “I want to remind priests that the confessional must not be a torture chamber, but rather an encounter with the Lord’s mercy”

    Liked by 4 people

    • charliej373 says:

      Yes, I know, Janet. I do not interpret that as meaning the Sacrament of the Eucharist BUT I understand the call for clarification, for though is no doubt that many will – and so this lovely exhortation could be used to justify scandal by the same sort of people who badly misinterpreted Vatican II until St. John Paul set things to right.

      Liked by 5 people

      • Beckita says:

        Couldn’t agree more, Charlie!!! And I believe this is what’s driving the fear among so many who have lived and proclaimed orthodoxy for so long.

        Liked by 3 people

        • charliej373 says:

          Yes, and it is why I respect the fears of those who have been faithfully orthodox. Experience has taught them that where there is an excuse for an abuse, all too many – even in clerical robes – will play it for all it’s worth.

          Liked by 4 people

          • TLM says:

            Exactly Charlie!! Those who have held on to ‘tradition’ since Vatican ll have seen and experienced some of the ‘new springtime’ which hadn’t been so ‘spring like’. They, I think realize that ambiguity opened the door to some really off the mark pastoral practices, which caused confusion and even misdirection by some of our prelates in the past. I don’t really think this has anything to do with ‘Pope bashing’ at least with some. I think they are afraid of Priests and Bishops seeing an ‘open door’ for leading souls in the wrong direction. These are people that passionately love the Church of Christ and have already experienced fallout from the hierarchy being ‘unclear’.

            Liked by 4 people

          • YongDuk says:

            Charlie, you and I know that Heaven doesn’t spoon feed, but gives us enough to mull over, ponder over, meditate over so as to be docile over, to be humble over, to grow in self knowledge over.

            It came to me during the Tridentine Mass tonight (Yay! Ascension Thursday. Sorry, Doug, got excited! Did you ever consider, Doug and MP, the connexion between today and Holy Thursday? Biscuits, Mick, HNSE, my Foreign Consultants? It’s wondrous, but I need to do some digging to see if I am reading too much into John 15-17. Charlie, you get me distracted with the Bible, why is that?) that I tend to expect my audience to ponder like Biscuits and MP. Too many like to be lead, to be spoon fed. That is so American University System. When I was in Edumacation, my doctoral students or post-docs were not spoon fed. I pointed them in the right direction, but I realised pouring over papers and books and such one learns a lot more than not. It’s the “Unabridged Dictionary system of learning.”

            My comments are not crisp and clear. Not even in real life. I joked that I stand up amongst my fellow Bishops, make a statement, and excuse myself for a break as I walk out of the room. For those quick to judge, I am eccentric or have huge prostate issues if not eccentric.

            Urs von Balthasar.

            Oh, to be around such a great mind… to see the spinnings and the spirals and the flight patterns…

            John Paul II.

            Ratzinger. (Later Benedict XVI)

            Vanhoye.

            There are a few here I have provoked on purpose. James Ignatius. Joj. DPH. (Biscuits, we were just familiarising ourselves.)

            That is my paedogogical method.

            Why? If you don’t think, you won’t interiorise. Thomas isn’t brilliant for what he wrote, but for what he interiorised. Likewise, Teresa Benedycta Krzyża.

            If you read St. Paul, you will see the same thing. He doesn’t want you to be automatons. He wants his readers, his disciples, to chew on meat, not be sucklings.

            So, during Mass tonight, I wondered if Francis might be the same way… Does he realise that he is an untacked-down as a reckless reader might see me as, missing that he expects you to go back and sit and ponder and figure it out for yourself?

            My Australian friend, to my stupidity–my absolute and stupid and stupidly stupidity–told me as much two years ago and I didn’t understand it. I just figured that out tonight. I read his piece he sent me as a puff piece, but in an ultra-way-too-erudite fashion. But he was right… He realised early on that Francis was ultra-orthodox, but a Father who showed his children how to walk and expects them to walk. And he, like Charlie’s family who egg him on, at times eggs us on so that we think to think and think to ponder what he is saying. Oh, he is more astute then people give him credit for… And the Holy Spirit is forming him.

            It is no longer time for milk, my friends. It is time for meat. For you who should know better, so that you can give milk and then meat to those needing formation.

            I write as I write for a reason. I preach as I preach for a reason. Charlie’s Angels did the same. (Ha! How’s that for humility comparing myself with Charlie’s Angels, my hair extensions and physique as it is? Boss)

            Paedogogy.

            So why then do I post this here under Charlie’s comment, “Yes, and it is why I respect the fears of those who have been faithfully orthodox. Experience has taught them that where there is an excuse for an abuse, all too many – even in clerical robes – will play it for all it’s worth.”

            I will let you mull it over while Andy, Barney and I sip Grey Mai Thais in Mayberry.

            pax,
            +

            Liked by 12 people

          • Doug says:

            Aaaah! There is such beauty in discovery! I will have to read this 7.356 times to get the full meaning before I comment. Uh oh. Too late. I just commented. Ok. 6.356 times to go…….

            Liked by 5 people

          • Beckita says:

            I’ll chew on this plenty more, Professor, but first I wanted to make sure you had this lest you run out of Mai Tai Mix:

            Liked by 7 people

          • Doug says:

            Beckita, that’s cool. I have a little whiskey in my prep supplies, but this would bring it to a new level. I think I will buy some and save it for the rescue and get some Mai Tai mix for YD.

            Liked by 3 people

          • Beckita says:

            Oh yes, Doug! Please don’t forget our little buddies with last minute supply gathering:

            Liked by 1 person

          • Doug says:

            Ha! Great Beckita. Got me rolling.

            Liked by 4 people

          • Doug says:

            YD, so what is the connection between Holy Thursday and Ascension Thursday? I love your passion. Wait a minute. Is that it? Great passion? Great passion is a good sauce for learning. I fail to see how it ties into John 15:17. I guess I need spoon feeding. Sigh…….

            Liked by 2 people

          • JudyM says:

            YongDuk, oh to have been one of your students.

            Liked by 6 people

          • Beckita says:

            But Judy! You ARE, we all are in YD’s class and it’s happenin’ NOW! 😉

            Liked by 7 people

          • Mick says:

            My dear Juvenile Waterfowl, I have never contemplated the connection between Holy Thursday and Ascension Thursday. I will try to do so. I have a difficulty, though: I am not at all good at contemplation or meditation and I am definitely not a philosopher. My mind wanders all the time (if I were an elementary-school student today, I probably would be given a diagnosis of ADHD). But I will make an honest effort.

            Thank you for the excellent points that you make about Pope Francis. And you are so right: we’re way past time for milk. So, pass the meat and potatoes.

            Liked by 6 people

          • YongDuk says:

            ha! Biscuits, you got it 😉

            Liked by 4 people

          • Mark says:

            Beckita, given we are in YD’s Class and the current homework assigned is:

            “Kick my reply around some and think why did I bring up what I brought up (I meant to say every couple days, sorry) and why in terms of Confession and where our society is, etc. Put it in connexion with my other answers and comments. Delve into the psychology, the Catechism, the pastoral reply then back into AL and see the connexion with Chapter 8 and the footnotes. Don’t get bogged down with the irregular situation qua unresolvable and the couple in question and the gravity of sin, but think about the individual, the individual acting, etc.”

            Can I claim my dog ate it?

            Liked by 5 people

          • charliej373 says:

            Ha…if not, mine might!

            Liked by 3 people

          • Beckita says:

            So great, Mark!!! Enjoy this reply from the whole staff:

            Liked by 2 people

          • MarieUrsula says:

            Mick: “My dear Juvenile Waterfowl . . . .” 😀

            Liked by 2 people

          • Mark says:

            5
            Now what?
            (That is a great recording)

            Liked by 1 person

          • YongDuk says:

            As far as I can think, re: the connexion between Holy Thursday and the Ascension…

            Hold on, I am putting this below

            Liked by 1 person

  10. YongDuk says:

    AL is quite simple.

    Dan’s take is more benign than I thought it would be, but Dan comes from a high index of suspicion perhaps from his culture or having to fight the good fight against the rampant homosexuality [etc] that plagues some clerical circles . And while Many in the North East of America and Many Parts of Canada do have cause for such an Index, I do not think it is fair or balance or even sane in This Time, that is, this particular time. It only adds to the hermeneutic of suspicion.

    Months ago, for those whose encyclopedic case is not up-to-date, there was much warning about the Schism from the Right.

    Well, Dan Lynch, I must ask if you pondered that?

    I am no heterodox. In fact, most would call me highly orthodox with “Right” leanings pastorally and liturgically.

    I see AL much as Pope Benedict reflects.

    Most lay people just don’t have the breadth of experience to properly critique and, I dare say, most reactionary Right-leaning Bishops don’t as well.

    Cardinal Burke lived through the awful years of scandals that I shan’t even repeat in the Episcopal circles. He trenched himself down in towing a very authentic, orthodox line that are consistent with his psyche. Yet, he has his critics, some are my good friends, and their criticisms aren’t unfounded. However, they are critical with respect. I am less critical, as I, being formed by JPII and to serve JPII, understand the need to “bracket” and see perspectives from many perspectives. Cardinal Burke has such a beautiful and wonderful heart as reflected in his Devotion to the Sacred Heart. Nevertheless, if one doesn’t see the fulness of who Cardinal Burke is and his circumstances, one doesn’t see his writings completely for what they are.

    So back to Dan.

    Dan… and I preface this before Charlie post’s Dan’s piece, Dan’s reaction is highly reactionary citing reactionaries and reactionaryism. He cites lay people who are reactionary. And he cites the clerics that he does, proof-texting.

    I have a problem with that.

    Anyone can guess what that is… Starts with “r”, ends with “y”.

    In the hermeneutic of suspicion, with reactionaryism there enters a closed-minded approach: I know what is right.

    While there is definitely right and wrong, there are also the very difficult cases that Janet quoted Benedict bringing up. I too, in response to Doug, outlined how I see AL.

    Even from my first statement: I am looking how I am going to edumacate [my] Priests.

    See that? Edumacation?

    AL is an opportunity to reign in the “Left” and the “Right” and to pull up the Laity.

    I even mentioned that AL’s controversial chapters applies to very, very few people, as very, very few couples in such irregular situations are desirous of the Spiritual Life that AL would intend in those situations.

    So, I guess I am flummoxed and frustrated by the “Rights”‘s reactionaryism and lack of insight into the fact that there need be dialogue and edumacation of all, including themselves.

    And, Dan Lynch and all, I challenge you to edumacate yourselves well!

    Liked by 11 people

    • eightlambs says:

      YD says: “what starts with “r” and ends in “y”?”
      Rosary.😄

      Liked by 4 people

    • Karen says:

      YD, I don’t know this for sure – Dan himself could certainly clarify it – often when I see Dan’s name it has ‘Judge’ in front of it and this is where I have naturally assumed that he is a (retired?) Justice of the Court. As such he is, or has been, in the ‘business’ of dealing with right and wrong over the course of his career and ‘backgrounding’ (right alongside your edumacating dear Bishop, he! he! -in this case nothing to do with animal husbandry or mobile applications!) would be the necessary prerequisite for each case he deals with. I have always had great respect for the work he does in his Apostolate. Remember the Left’s Winnepeg Statement post Humanae Vitae which was wound back gradually by many of the signees? Now with AL we have an early Right Reaction that is good for each of us to look into but truly I do look forward with some excitement and enthusiasm (trusting in the gifts of the Holy Spirit) to every single one of us practising Catholics becoming AL proactive in our own little section of the Kingdom! And is people like you in the hierarchy YD that will lead us into the fray – with the backing of many prayers. May God bless your edumacating efforts.

      Liked by 2 people

      • YongDuk says:

        Karen, I read your reply a couple of times… And, without being contentious, I am not sure what you mean in regards to Dan Lynch.

        It is, in fact, as you are saying because he is at least a Lawyer and has served the MMP for years and has the Apostolate that he does, that I write what I wrote.

        When I was in Seminary, oh, when I was teaching in Seminary, I had the same spectrums you see now in the Clergy. When I was teaching in Seminary overseas, I saw laxity that would make your head pop off in the sense your saying to yourself, “My gumgosh, how does anything get done in regards to the Kingdom?!” (Yes, Doug, think of the Dandelions!)

        The only thing I could do was to get the Seminarians to at least see the other side’s point of view.

        And if they could articulate the other side’s point of view — and forgive me for saying this as this is loaded — they got a B (3 in a 0-4 grading system you silly People who have a 5 point scale!).

        That was my biggest goal.

        I taught Patristics. I taught Moral Theology.

        I have extremely high expectations of people to live up to their Titles: MD, JD, STD/STL, JCD/JCL. (Yes, Doug, you are right, I skipped one.) The only Title that I don’t have much expectation for is the SSD/SSL.(This is not meant not to show deference to the other professional titles, Pharm D, Psych D, MSW, RN, MA/MS, etc.)

        Therefore, I expect certain people to not just articulate right and wrong, but to articulate the possibilities and potentialities. If you can do that, then you have my esteem.

        Do — and this is not towards you, Karen — do not think I am dumb, even if a dumb Bishop.

        As soon as I saw the Language of AL, you better believe I saw all the abuses that were possible. So, I sat in my Chapel.

        I said before, and I said this aimed dead on towards Dan: Look at the context of the footnotes.

        The colours are there. The right steps — the next right steps — are there.

        We are dealing with entrenched habits, addictions, illnesses — both societal and individual.

        How to cure them?

        Oh, Benedict said that he would prefer a smaller, more Faithful Church.

        Ponder that.

        He is wedged between to Relatively Progressive Popes, John Paul II and Francis.

        Ponder that.

        There is no contradiction.

        We aren’t talking about the right to receive the Sacraments versus not to receive. We are talking about Heaven and Hell.

        Does Everybody see that?

        Does Everybody see that the Pope is constantly dealing with the Issue exactly: The Eternal Salvation or Damnation of Each Soul alive on Earth under his Reign and following his Reign?

        Does Everybody see the Weight of his Mission?

        We are talking about Souls, not about rights. A Desecration of the Eucharist, Sacrilege, is one Wallop of a Sin.

        But the Eucharist is the Medicine of Life… and the World is Dying or at least suffering from the Battle between the “Church and the anti-church”.

        I would rather ten Masses offered Badly–and Please don’t misread this, I am speaking rhetorically–than only one Mass said truly holily by a Holy Priest. Why? The Grace is beyond the Priest celebrating Mass.

        The Pope, that is, Pope Francis, realises this.

        He realises the potentiality for good. (And no, part of this rhetoric is not accepting the bad or any bad or evil or abuse.)

        The Pope is opening the Door to Greater Good in certain situations which ordinarily would be too easily dismissed.

        Let’s go back to the rhetoric of the Mass above and apply it to the Eucharist.

        I said that the Grace of the Mass being Offered is beyond the Priest celebrating Mass. However, the Grace of the Reception of the Individual of receiving the Eucharist is different. The Effect is different. Same Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. But not each Person receives the same Grace. Why? Defects of the Individual.

        If I could get ten thousand (that’s a rhetorical number, Doug) Souls thirsting for the Living God and thirsting for the Eucharist, truly, imagine the Graces for the World!

        Now, apply that to Pope Francis and AL.

        Apply that to the Sacrament of Matrimony.

        Do you see the Cascade? The Effect?

        Do you see why I am shocked at Dan?

        It is one thing to call to mind the potential abuses and another to act like Ham.

        Liked by 13 people

        • Beckita says:

          Potent stuff, YD, worthy of several rereads.Thank you so much.

          Liked by 4 people

        • JudyM says:

          YongDuk, Best thing I have read today.

          Liked by 4 people

        • Doug says:

          I think I get it YD except “think of the dandelions”.

          Like

          • Snowy Owl says:

            Head pop off & dandelions 😏…kids game. Mama had a baby and her head popped off – take thumb and flick the dandelion flower 🌻 off of the stem and get the bitter white milky substance in your eyes or mouth and run home crying..kids can be very strange. 👶

            Liked by 4 people

          • Doug says:

            Aaaah. Ok. Thanks Snowy.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Snowy Owl says:

            Doug, probably not what he meant.. just the first thing that came to mind 😊 because I’m so clueless.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Doug says:

            Me too. I think when YD, MP and I travel the Universe, I am going to be towed along in a little red wagon like a little kid…..

            Liked by 5 people

          • Snowy Owl says:

            Sounds fun, here’s a few trinkets so you don’t get bored ⚽🎾🏈 and a few treats 🍬🍭🍦 and some matchbox cars 🚗🚕🚒. You’re all set! 😏

            Liked by 3 people

          • Mick says:

            Snowy, we used to play that game, too. But we used plantain flower heads rather than dandelions.

            Liked by 6 people

          • YongDuk says:

            Nope, I definitely meant that game, HNSE!

            🙂

            Never did it into someone’s face, though. We were a more polite generation…

            Liked by 4 people

        • Snowy Owl says:

          Truly beautiful. wow.

          Liked by 3 people

        • Karen says:

          Thank you very much for your reply YD and I apologise for lack of clarity!!! Please pay no attention to my ‘addlemindedness’ – I do admit to being a dumb-bunny many a time but the good Lord in His mercy supplies me with enough grace of perseverance and optimism to keep on trying.

          I hope this next question is not too annoying because it may very well be a form of escapism on my part as a result of reading too many comments on AL. You have spoken previously of your connection to the MMP, the Movement in which Mother’s Blue Book mentions several times the coming event known as “the Illumination of Consciences”. The question takes a completely different tack to the AL commentary thus far – if this Illumination was to take place tomorrow, Sunday May 8, would not the Apostolic Exhortation become an immediate and necessary handbook to help deal with the expected sorrow, regret, and rush of conversions? Not just for irregular relationships between persons but for every person’s relationship with the Most Holy Trinity, inside and outside of the Catholic Church – I really think the factions would disappear – or have I stepped into the twilight zone there!

          Liked by 3 people

          • YongDuk says:

            I think many think as you think, Karen.

            I don’t have the insight. Charlie’s Birmingham Video says what it said and that was the first serious dismissal of sorts I have ever heard of–that the Illumination or Warning would happen in a more ordinary way.

            I don’t know.

            I read what Joe wrote… so…

            I don’t know.

            (I am only remotely associated with the MMP, just FYI.)

            Liked by 2 people

          • Beckita says:

            YD noted: “I don’t have the insight. Charlie’s Birmingham Video says what it said and that was the first serious dismissal of sorts I have ever heard of–that the Illumination or Warning would happen in a more ordinary way.”

            Perhaps, BOTH/AND: BOTH happening in both a seemingly ordinary and actually ordinary ways, over time, AND a gratuitous act of tremendous mercy as an event in time for any holdouts… Perhaps…

            Liked by 2 people

        • LukeMichael says:

          YD
          Just a wonderful meditation, praise God!

          Proof is the inspiration it gave Snowy to wax eloquent about children and dandelions!

          I fancy myself a lover of words(especially the English language).

          Edumacation was my favorite until I came across “gumgosh.”

          Liked by 7 people

        • joj says:

          YD:”Does Everybody see that the Pope is constantly dealing with the Issue exactly: The Eternal Salvation or Damnation of Each Soul..? ” Exactly! Your entire comment resonates so deeply with me. We have to meet people where they’re at, because that is the only way to truly love them. A huge part of this is finding the good wherever it exists, even as a sort of tiny mustard seed that can be nurtured to become a tree.

          I have always been a natural critic, and thoughtlessly direct about it. One day I heard a voice. “Look for the good and there you will find Me.” I realized that this message is totally consistent with Thomistic thought. Evil is the absence of God, but God is the source of all goodness. So looking for the good in the most unlikely places, I would indeed find God. “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true,… whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” Phil. 4:8 So I have embarked on a lifetime effort of orienting myself differently.
          God is there, even in the mud. St. Thomas says, He is even in Hell, insofar as He sustains the damned in existence. Yes, the Pope takes a positive approach, and finds good even in disordered relationships. Sacrificing for another is an intrinsic good even amongst the filth of sin.

          In our home we focus on what the kids are doing right and encourage that. We surround them with good things and try to keep the bad influences out of our home. We have found that our teens have become so familiar with the good and the true, that going out into the world they recognize evil for the emptiness that it is and find no attraction in it, while naturally tending toward the good and the true wherever they find it. Even correction begins with an appreciation of what their doing right, and often becomes unnecessary when the children are helped to appreciate the higher ideal, because they want to self-correct. But recognizing goodness and truth is a process, not something you can deliver in a law.

          St. John Bosco; “No doubt it is ten times easier to lose our patience than to control it, to threaten a boy than to persuade him. …Force, indeed, punishes guilt but does not heal the guilty.”

          Yes, YD, the Pope wants to save souls not simply to accuse them with the Law. The devil is the Accuser; Christ is the Savior. “For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.” Rom. 8:3 The law is unto death. Just telling people it will not save them. The Pope wants us to struggle with this deeper reality.

          Liked by 5 people

          • Doug says:

            Joj, your kids are very fortunate to have you as a Mom.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Beckita says:

            WOW, Joj!

            Liked by 1 person

          • Joj says:

            Oh, Doug and Beckita, you are so kind. But I consider my kids terribly unfortunate to have me as a parent, to be quite honest. I must say that the good Lord makes up for it, though, with all the graces He showers on our family. Let’s just say that St. Paul is not the only one to have been knocked off his high horse. I am one of those people who has to learn everything the hard way. But somehow by the grace of God I am learning. And my children do a good bit of the teaching around here. 🙂

            Liked by 3 people

          • Doug says:

            Aaaah Joj, many of us learn the hard way (I included), but when we do learn that way, it is more apt to stick. As long as we are going in the right direction, you/we will do fine. Blessings!

            Liked by 2 people

        • LukeMichael says:

          Yd

          I get what you are saying but Doug and MP and yes even Biscuits often act like hams here.
          What a theme, ham and biscuits!

          Liked by 4 people

          • charliej373 says:

            Ha! You must be red-eye gravy!

            Liked by 3 people

          • Beckita says:

            Ha, LukeMichael and Charlie! But I miss the Beckinita moniker, YD.
            Y’all wanna’ try somethin’ that brings a most surprising result? Friday Night Fun Time… OK. Go to Google Images and type in “Beckinita.” On a wild whim I just did and nearly fell off the chair giigling. It’s obviously a “one and only” name.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Doug says:

            Oh LM, I think YD may have been referring to Ham, the son of Noah. I read it in Genesis the other day and it is not good at all. He did something indignant to Noah and became the father of that Cannanites and his descendents settled in Sodom and Gomorrah.

            Liked by 3 people

        • NancyA says:

          Y. E. S. Thanks, YongDuk.

          Liked by 1 person

        • torilen says:

          Thank you, thank you, thank you, for this YongDuk!

          Liked by 1 person

    • Mick says:

      Thank you,YD, for your words here. I appreciate the edumacation. 🙂

      Liked by 5 people

    • Doug says:

      I think it will take some time in Pope Francis field hospital and then we may begin to get our sight back.

      Liked by 4 people

    • THE DUK DICTIONARY for DUMMIES:

      * flummoxed (adj) – confused or bewildered
      * heterodox (adj) – at variance with established, orthodox, or accepted doctrines or beliefs (used here effectively as a noun)
      * hermeneutic (adj) – interpretive; explanatory
      *hermeneutics (n) – The theory and methodology of interpretation, especially of scriptural text.
      * edumacation (n) – what a contemporary college graduate receives.

      Liked by 10 people

      • deereverywhere says:

        Patrick, this is great! I especially like the last one but you forgot: begins with R and ends with Y
        ADJECTIVE
        (of a person or a set of views) opposing political or social liberalization or reform.
        synonyms: right-wing · conservative · rightist · ultraconservative · [more]
        NOUN
        a reactionary person.
        synonyms: right-winger · conservative · rightist · traditionalist

        Liked by 4 people

        • I’ve wanted to do this for awhile now. Hope no one takes offense. I take advantage of those “For Dummies” series when I want to learn some new topic quickly and thoroughly.

          Liked by 4 people

          • Snowy Owl says:

            Patrick, I love it…whenever YD posts I immediately- like automatically- pop up a new tab so I can type in every other word..lol! I have learned more words on this blog than anywhere! ( Now if I could just find a way to keep them in my silly head!!)

            Liked by 6 people

      • Mick says:

        🙂

        Liked by 2 people

    • goldensun says:

      This is potentially a silly question because I don’t really grasp all of the implications in play. For rare exceptional cases of “irregular” unions when certain criteria are met, could the Church have a sort of short-circuited annulment process or allow Bishops (or someone else in the hierarchy) to grant a special dispensation to allow the couple to receive the sacraments?

      Liked by 2 people

      • TLM says:

        I thought Pope Francis already took care of the annulment issue. Didn’t he a while back declare that Bishops could put into play a ‘faster annulment’ for people and then if that couldn’t be completed, or if the issues were beyond the Bishop, (or designated prelate) would then refer that person to the designated annulment board, so as to ‘hand it over’ to the people who had the experience and expertise? Correct me someone, if I’m wrong on this, but I read several articles on this a while ago.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Beckita says:

      A fine examination of conscience for each of us who expresses here,YD. Ya’ got me self-monitoring again: How often do I prooftext? When I receive what others have written AND when I write, do I consider the schema and background influencing the text – oh! so much to our backgrounds in addition to the edumacation each has received! Perhaps starting with “r”and ending with “y” for me, Am I too “runny” at the mouthy?

      “AL is an opportunity to reign in the “Left” and the “Right” and to pull up the Laity.” = beautiful. Pull firmly AND gently, please, Dear Shepherd…

      After years of ongoing training and experience in the field of edumacation, I see the processes and outcomes in the teaching-learning experiences depend very much on exactly what the edumacater was taught in addition to the ways s/he was edumacated.

      Lots to think about: rushy, rashy, rusty, rumory, rulethy, rotteny, rosy, rootsy, roomy, Romany, rocky, rudimentary, roary, righteoussnessly, rightly, richly, restraintly, respectfully, resistethly, resolvedly, requitedly, repairingly, refreshingly, reconcilingly, reasonably, rebellingly… Gosh, YD.I’ll be up most of the night with this examen. 😉

      Liked by 5 people

      • deereverywhere says:

        That’s really royally resoundingly funny😁

        Liked by 5 people

      • B, maybe I’ll forego the impulse towards rascally and approach this exercise a bit differently for a change — reverently.

        Liked by 7 people

        • Beckita says:

          MP, I trust the Spirit working through you, whatever you discern. I really do.

          I’ve been swamped with editing papers for a wonderful and young Chinese priest who is baffled by the process as he tackles content AND second language challenges. So, I’m just going to copy YD’s rich comments and sit in meditative zone with the Holy Eucharist before I really delve. The opportunity is too precious to miss.

          Praying for your reverential approach if that is what you finally decide. I’m sure your family will aprreciate that someone is praying for your reverence. Ha! 😉

          Liked by 3 people

    • Aric says:

      YD,
      Peace be with you
      Can you expand a bit on this please…
      “I even mentioned that AL’s controversial chapters applies to very, very few people, as very, very few couples in such irregular situations are desirous of the Spiritual Life that AL would intend in those situations.”
      in contrast to opposing possibilities
      a) The number of people and couples would not be very, very few…otherwise why would clergy like Kasper be in such a yank to “try” to latch onto AL as informal, if not formal, approval to start allowing couples to receive communion provided they had gone through his 5 step program which seemed to lower the existing bar on what the spiritual state of a couple should be instead of getting the couple over the existing bar.
      b.1) Are there not entire church communities in San Francisco that already skirt around existing church rules in their attempts to minister to those disordered folks —
      b.2) do you agree that if AL is allowed to be misinterpreted and/or misapplied in relation to the divorced and remarried couple population, then the disordered population will have a foothold in having church rules that apply to their state be similarly misinterpreted and/or misapplied ?

      Lastly, do you agree with Schneider’s statements copied below and the overall thrust of his reflections in Amoris Laetitia: A Need for Clarification >
      “If an ecclesiastical document – which, in our case, is neither definitive nor infallible – is found to contain elements likely to give rise to interpretations and applications that could have dangerous spiritual consequences, all members of the Church, and especially the bishops, as the fraternal collaborators of the Supreme Pontiff in effective collegiality, have a duty to report this and respectfully request an authentic interpretation. ”

      “Arguably, in our time, confusion is already spreading with regard to the sacramental discipline for divorced and remarried couples. There is therefore a very real basis for the assumption that the confusion may reach truly vast proportions, if one fail to propose and proclaim the following formula of the universal and infallible Magisterium: “Reconciliation in the sacrament of Penance, which would open the way to the Eucharist, can only be granted to those who take on themselves the duty to live in complete continence, that is, by abstinence from the acts proper to married couples” (S. John Paul II, Familiaris Consortio, 84). This formula is unfortunately and incomprehensibly missing in AL. However, the apostolic exhortation inexplicably contains the following statement: “In such situations, many people, knowing and accepting the possibility of living “as brothers and sisters” which the Church offers them, point out that if certain expressions of intimacy are lacking, it often happens that faithfulness is endangered and the good of the children suffers” (AL, 298, n. 329). Such a statement leaves the impression of a contradiction with regard to the perennial teaching of the universal Magisterium, as formulated in the cited passage from Familiaris Consortio 84. ”

      “An authentic interpretation of AL by the Apostolic See would bring to the entire Church (“claritatis laetitia”) the joy in clarity. Such clarity will ensure the joy in love (“amoris laetitia”), a love and a joy that would not be “according to the minds of men, but to the mind of God” (Mt 16, 23). And this is what counts for the joy, the life and the eternal salvation of the divorced and remarried, and of all men. ”

      thank you in advance for your time in response to my questions

      aric

      Liked by 1 person

      • YongDuk says:

        Aric, quick reply as I have Ascension Mass on my mind.

        As a Parish Priest, I heard confessions everyday and everyday couple days the same people would come to Confession confessing their sins of the flesh. (edited out, Doug, to become becoming 😉 ).

        Every time, I gave them absolution.

        I was not disappointed that they came back, but I was disappointed that they kept getting into the same near occasion of sins, either through drinking, TV, internet, or lack of a prayer life. I felt for them and their struggle.

        How many people out there committing sins of the flesh do you think regularly come to Confession?

        That is your answer.

        Liked by 6 people

        • aric says:

          YD

          First … as a Parish priest hearing confessions everyday — that is awesome dedication to your Priestly duties – very nice.

          Second
          I guess i am not smart enough to get how your answer is an applicable response to any of my questions. I guess I will need you to spoon feed me if you are so inclined.

          By your question are you asking How many people NOW are regularly coming to confession ?
          I would hazard the answer to be not anywhere near the number that should be.
          Am i to make the conclusion that if my answer is not enough people or in other words VERY FEW , that this is in part why you would say >>> “I even mentioned that AL’s controversial chapters applies to very, very few people, as very, very few couples in such irregular situations are desirous of the Spiritual Life that AL would intend in those situations.” ?

          Third
          I asked several questions. was your one question to me an answer to all my questions ?

          Maybe you think i was trying to be a “troll” with my questions of you – i can assure i was not.

          God Bless,

          Aric

          Liked by 3 people

          • charliej373 says:

            So you are aware, Aric, YD is not a Parish Priest. He is a Bishop who uses the screen name of Yong Duk here so he can participate in the conversation in a relaxed rather than overly formal fashion – and protect his identity so he doesn’t become the subject of public attacks.

            He is kept rather busy and generally answers serious questions as he gets the time. This forum is a relaxation for him, and I think you will find you will get more of an answer as he gets time and considers the questions. I did not get the sense he thought you were a troll.

            Liked by 2 people

          • YongDuk says:

            No, Aric, my apologies if you thought I was being blunt or avoiding your questions or thinking you a troll.

            But yes, I did give my answer as I did and, thinking about my seemingly avoidant answer and Francis’ in flight questions during Mass, I thought I better clarify my paedogogy lest some people think that I constantly ramble on askew in my long answers (even MPs comment on the length of my comments added to that) without speaking clearly and crisply (which I do when need be, but Charlie is right, I like to let my hair down and just throw out interrelated food for thought).

            Let me re-read my reply to you to make sure I replied what I think I replied…. hold on.

            (Doug hum something for us until I am back.)

            Ok, thanks, Doug. (Biscuits, you can stop too, joining in as I am sure you did. [Mick, is probably elsewhere on the page rolling on the floor, so ignore her laughter, it’s completely unrelated.])

            Yes, Aric, that is my reply to all your questions for now 😉

            Kick my reply around some and think why did I bring up what I brought up (I meant to say every couple days, sorry) and why in terms of Confession and where our society is, etc. Put it in connexion with my other answers and comments. Delve into the psychology, the Catechism, the pastoral reply then back into AL and see the connexion with Chapter 8 and the footnotes. Don’t get bogged down with the irregular situation qua unresolvable and the couple in question and the gravity of sin, but think about the individual, the individual acting, etc.

            Liked by 6 people

          • Doug says:

            Hmmmmm, hmmm, hmm, hmmmmm…..

            Ok. The beauty of your long comments expresses your love and concern as you take what is most precious time and give a thoughtful reply. Whether I fully understand or not (12.34159 of the times I don’t understand), I take these cherrished golden nuggets home with me.

            Liked by 6 people

          • YongDuk says:

            Oh, also put it in context — and this is really the backdrop for the section of my comment that you quoted — of all the people on any given Sunday who present themselves for the Eucharist who maybe shouldn’t.

            That too was very much part at the heart of your series of questions, wasn’t it? 😉

            Liked by 5 people

          • Aric says:

            Charlie> I have seen that he is a Bishop now.. I did not phrase my praise clearly enough– I meant In your former position as a Parish Priest…”

            thanks for the inside intel though that he might not respond quickly to my post and further posts may be forthcoming=– appreciate it.

            Happy Friday all

            anyone going meatless today ?

            Liked by 4 people

          • charliej373 says:

            I have a rehearsal dinner this evening, so I will not be choosing what I eat. May the Lord bless us all on this day.

            Liked by 4 people

          • jlynnbyrd says:

            Aric, I fast from meat on Fridays. 🙂

            Liked by 2 people

          • “….lengthier comments,” said MP, in spite of his own notoriously lengthy comments.

            I did read YD’s entire comment (3 times no less), which didn’t stop my thoughts from wandering right along with Mick’s. I think I was also distracted by Doug and Biscuit’s humming, to say nothing of Patrick fishing (and me wanting to be fishing too).

            For some reason I was thinking about trimming that palm tree out front this morning but chose to wait. Three years ago I didn’t wait, and discovered a nesting mourning dove with eggs –– after I had trimmed away all the prickly fronds. Naturally I was distressed about it, so had to rig a fix using the trimmings and other materials so the little mother could complete HER task. It was a bit slapdash, but did the trick.

            Believe it or not, I forgot the following year and repeated the same mistake. [sigh.] Good thing I had some experience, so I quickly got to the business of repairing the mess (I had even saved the same frame from the previous year). A few weeks after that I noticed the skilled landscapers coming around for tree trimming –– AFTER all the little ones in the neighborhood were out of the nest.

            So, yes, this year I’m waiting to trim that tree in a few weeks time.

            I suppose I might have avoided the whole learning curve if those skilled fellas would have given me some heads up. Then again, I just failed to notice what they’ve been doing (and why) for the 12 years I’ve been in the same neighborhood.

            Wandering thoughts… but, thanks to YD for getting me to seriously ponder and meditate on the immense Grace in learning curves.

            Today, I’m just going to gently sneak up into the fronds and say “hi” to the little mother. Maybe I’ll get a picture and share that little bit of joy.

            God Bless,

            MP

            Liked by 5 people

          • Mick says:

            Ha, YD! I started chuckling when you told Doug to hum. Now I am laughing in earnest, but I can’t roll because my Little Miss Sleepytoddler is on my lap. Y’all should feel fee to ignore me anyway. 🙂

            Liked by 6 people

          • Beckita says:

            Nah, Dear Mick. Can’t ignore you or anyone else here. I do wish I could join Little Miss Sleepytoddler for a nap.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Mark says:

            Yes I am meatless

            Liked by 2 people

          • Mick says:

            Aric, our family has been doing meatless Fridays for as long as I can remember.

            Liked by 2 people

          • YongDuk says:

            Oh, my right hand doesn’t know what my left hand is doing, Aric et al.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Because I said I would share (B, LTV, JLB, Snowy, and anyone else who’s interested), and because I like healthy and tidy trees, I did go up into the palm fronds for a look. As expected, there was a nest in the first tree. The nest in the second tree was a bit of surprise. After careful inspection, I didn’t find a nest in the third tree.

            As you can see at a glance, the two mourning dove nests are nearly indistinguishable. They’re also constructed with a minimum of material, so they’re fairly light weight and delicate. As such, I had to be very careful and gentle while taking a look, so I didn’t startle the little mothers (otherwise, they might have knocked their own eggs out of the nest when fleeing).

            I’m a bit of a nut when it comes to yard work, cleaning and such, so I would have preferred to knock out all the pruning today. Instead, I left the trees with nests alone, trimmed the third, and took care of the rest of the yard. Thinking about the two nearly identical nests, I meditated on the fact that God’s glance has no such limitation –– that not one detail escapes His notice.

            I also waved at the grumpy neighbor across the street who has never returned my wave –– not once in over a decade. As he turned his back on me and went into his house, I couldn’t help but notice his unkempt trees and how much I’d like to just go over there with the ladder and pruning gear to handle it. Yeah, I actually did that with another neighbor’s yard, but since we’re on friendly terms, he was thankful for the help. Back to the grumpy guy… I’m sure I mumbled something under my breath. That didn’t escape God’s notice either.

            Sitting out back after all was said and done, I was left with nothing more than what a serious and difficult business this all is. Heck, I’m sweating about the business of birds, nests and tree trimming, while the Church is dealing with this enormous issue we’re discussing (among others)… the life of souls. Unless I count myself as nothing more than another opinion though, I’m an active part of that too.

            Sorry, but I have no great answers. I’m just convinced that Charlie is right. We need to stretch ourselves to the point of being uncomfortable if necessary. Yeah, I think it’s necessary. We’ve all gotten too comfortable.

            Heck, I might even have to bake a pie and take it to grumpy guy across the street. That might sound funny, but you have no idea how uncomfortable that would make me.

            God Bless,

            MP

            Liked by 4 people

          • charliej373 says:

            Not to mention how deliciously uncomfortable it would probably make him 😉

            Liked by 4 people

          • Doug says:

            Ha!

            Liked by 2 people

          • Beckita says:

            What a breathtaking tribute to God’s creation and His intervention in our lives, MP. WOW! Thank you.

            And I’ll bet it will take your neighbor’s breath away to receive a pie from you. Amazing you, MP!

            Liked by 2 people

          • Doug says:

            Lambzie always cooks something when new neighbors move in.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Beckita says:

            Imagine the joy of being Doug and Lambzie’s neighbors!

            Liked by 3 people

          • Doug says:

            Beckita, if you were our neighbor, the joy would be ours.

            Liked by 3 people

          • jlynnbyrd says:

            MP, the pictures as usual are magnificent. Thank you for taking and sharing them. Just before reading your last sentence I was thinking MP should go over to the neighbor and ask to borrow a cup of sugar. Ha, now you can borrow the sugar to bake the pie and God-willing have a chat and a good laugh too.

            Liked by 4 people

          • Doug says:

            Heartwarming MP. I have a killer apple recipe if you would like.

            Liked by 4 people

          • Snowy Owl says:

            MP, absolutely beautiful pictures, wow! They are one of my favorite birds, they have such soft, subtle, beautiful colors. And yes, their nests are incredibly flimsy! Due to this, I ended up raising a few mourning dove babys (squabs) and few pigeons too after storms hit and blew them out of the trees.They drink what we used to call pigeon milk from mamma’s crop..they stick their little heads down her throat and gulp away! I had to make up my own mix and spoon it down their throat or use a turkey baster. Then later I had to teach them how to live in the wild so I could release them. It was fun. 🐦

            Liked by 4 people

          • Beckita says:

            We’ll see where this lands, MP. Holy Codex!
            The first piece reflects the very nature of engagement with a couple, in the style of the Good Shepherd in all carefulness and gentleness: “As such, I had to be very careful and gentle while taking a look, so I didn’t startle the little mothers (otherwise, they might have knocked their own eggs out of the nest when fleeing).”

            The gradulality of it all with acknowledgement that God has long been aware and at work in the gnarly details. Holy Pruning Buckets, MP!!!: I’m a bit of a nut when it comes to yard work, cleaning and such, so I would have preferred to knock out all the pruning today. Instead, I left the trees with nests alone, trimmed the third, and took care of the rest of the yard. Thinking about the two nearly identical nests, I meditated on the fact that God’s glance has no such limitation –– that not one detail escapes His notice.

            Judge not lest ye be judged. Brilliant, MP!!! (God’s eye is truly on the sparrow. Did you get a glimpse of that?): I also waved at the grumpy neighbor across the street who has never returned my wave –– not once in over a decade. As he turned his back on me and went into his house, I couldn’t help but notice his unkempt trees and how much I’d like to just go over there with the ladder and pruning gear to handle it… I’m sure I mumbled something under my breath. That didn’t escape God’s notice either.

            Drumming the dogma beat, again and again, has us stuck. Enter AL with the responsibility of TNRS as posed in your closing line: “Sitting out back after all was said and done, I was left with nothing more than what a serious and difficult business this all is. Heck, I’m sweating about the business of birds, nests and tree trimming, while the Church is dealing with this enormous issue we’re discussing (among others)… the life of souls. Unless I count myself as nothing more than another opinion though, I’m an active part of that too.

            Amen: Sorry, but I have no great answers. I’m just convinced that Charlie is right. We need to stretch ourselves to the point of being uncomfortable if necessary. Yeah, I think it’s necessary. We’ve all gotten too comfortable.

            Is the grumpy guy authentic, MP? Whether or not he is, just imagine how uncomfortable it would be for someone who’s been grousing about “that” couple in an “Irregular marriage” to cease the grumpiness and reach out in love. Apple pies come in many forms and disguises. Evangelization extraordinaire! Bravo, MP!!! You’re a star student.

            Liked by 2 people

          • jlynnbyrd says:

            Awe, MP is the new teachers pet! 🙂

            Liked by 2 people

          • Yes, B and JLB, the answer IS ‘pie’. Or if you’re Snowy it would be [insert pie emoji here]…to Doug it would be ‘pi’… ‘toll-house cookies’ to YD (although that’s really not the answer so much as something he just wanted to point out to me… maybe the answer nonetheless). Or, as Luke Michael has pointed out, I wander around a bunch.

            Since you’re a teacher, here’s something you might enjoy: My Calculus teacher in high school called my ma in for a conference. Turns out she thought I was being too challenging (‘disruptive’ might have been the word). “It’s like he’s always challenging me to teach him,” said she. It also annoyed her that I was too philosophical about everything. “Hm,” thought I. The fact was, I simply couldn’t grasp Calculus, so decided I had no use for it. Even so, I sincerely wanted her to teach me something useful. Really, she was an exceptional teacher and had a marvelous personality. I’m not equating that teacher or me (ok, I am me) to anyone. It’s just something I recall from 37 years ago, and thought the teachers on this blog might enjoy it.

            Yes, grumpy guy is real. I share simple things that really happen, just as I saw/lived them. Maybe I recounted that episode because I was pondering YD’s ascending/descending motif. In the midst of that, I was also pondering the Last Supper and Pentecost. (YD, breaking of the Bread and tongues of Flame connection.) Certainly the NRS’ers AL discussion has been on my mind. Eventually my thoughts led to a pie.

            I think I’m stuck on the pie theme for a number of reasons, not the least of which is this great call for authentic unity (The Family of God) that was placed on my heart some time ago. Going hand-in-hand with that, is the other theme on my heart: embracing the Diversity in God’s Children. Sure, the world has been spouting plenty of nonsense about ‘diversity’ (the illicit), which is bitterly opposed to the diversity we value (the God given). As Charlie says, “we need each other,” and I add, ‘every little slice, if possible.’

            Imagine if we were a banana cream pie… maybe a blueberry pie with homemade whip cream. Actually, I’ve hardly ever come across a pie I didn’t like, but if you put out a huge table of all the pies ever baked, I’d always go for banana cream or blueberry first. Dutch apple… cherry… pumpkin… pecan (ooooh, pecan)………. oh, key lime! I’d save that one for last.

            On second thought, let’s not imagine we’re a pie. Just show me to the pie table.

            God Bless,

            MP

            Liked by 3 people

          • Beckita says:

            Love it, MP! The disruptive rascal was simply longing to express his true philosophical nature. God bless you and all here, every last slice and morsel.

            Liked by 1 person

          • YongDuk says:

            Ha! Sorry, MP, I caught that the first read… Doug and I as Engineers heard pi jokes all the time going through University, so I think I just kept rolling… and got hungry.

            You should have seen the Male and Female Yellow Finches on Saturday. They were weaving like sine waves offset in their amplitudes in each others flight path and at the speed I was biking I was traveling with them. It was surreal and made all the more surreal when a Blue Bird cut straight in front of me and would have intercepted their course at about 75 degrees if each didn’t land at the almost the exact same time: the Yellow Finches on the Bright Grass, the Blue Bird on a Branch in the Tree.

            The Colours were incredible and it was as if everything slowed down like in slow motion even though this all took place in 3-5 seconds.

            Liked by 3 people

          • YongDuk says:

            MP, I love banana cream pies, but haven’t had one since my metabolism slowed down when I was in Africa. I need to be a flexible green kung fu squirrel, not a kung fu panda.

            Liked by 5 people

          • joj says:

            Well that just takes the cake, MP! I mean the pie. Hmm, I wish I could be a banana cream pie, but I suppose I am more of a beef pot pie, huh? Oh please not mincemeat!! I’m afraid I can relate to the grumpy guy across the street. You’re a blueberry pie with ice cream, I’d say, MP. Substantial but not too heavy. And then Snowy and Deer, they’re cream pies, don’t you think? Fluffy, fun and sweet! That’s as far as I’ve gotten. Everyone here makes for a great buffet! Love your thoughts about diversity and unity. That’s been on my heart of late, too. The hand is not the eye as St. Paul says.

            Being grumpy stinks, but having neighbors who want you to snap out of it can make things worse. Sometimes the best thing you can do for a person is give them their space, and then be there for them when they need you. Just the occasional nod or wave let’s them know you care without getting into their face. (And, oh dear, what if he’s a diabetic celiac?!!)

            Liked by 4 people

          • YD, thanks for sharing about the birds, and thanks for not composing it as an equation.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Yes, joj. You hit on something that I was alluding to, so I think that’s worth this Yogi Berra quote: “Cut my pie into four pieces, I don’t think I could eat eight.”

            Liked by 2 people

          • Mick says:

            YD, your pie/pi quip made me think of a T-shirt I saw in a catalogue once. I thought it was hilarious; and maybe you, Doug, SteveBC, and the other math-geek types (MP, are you an engineer, too?) will get a chuckle out of it:

            https://www.spreadshirt.com/find-x-here-it-is-t-shirts-A14128269

            Liked by 2 people

        • Snowy Owl says:

          YongDuk,Thank you! for posting the link for the Novena to the Holy Spirit for the Seven Gifts (posted in the prayer requests)! It’s really beautiful! I had never heard of it before today and it is an answer to one of my prayers!

          Liked by 4 people

        • deereverywhere says:

          Pedagogy
          1. the function or work of a teacher; teaching.
          2. the art or science of teaching; education; instructional methods.

          I can honestly say that I have never used that word in a sentence. Here goes:
          I can’t pedagogy my dog to not eat the cat food. Or:
          There will be no pedagogy going on in any schools that retain two genders as natural law.

          Liked by 5 people

          • jlynnbyrd says:

            Deer, I am picturing you behind a podium that holds an unabridged dictionary, with glasses wrapped around your neck with a chain, as you stand before us as our pedagog. 😉
            I dub you our resident NRS librarian.

            Liked by 3 people

          • deereverywhere says:

            Glasses part correct. Since I was eight. Hair bun, sometimes, in the summer usually a pony tail grey, now more than ever. I only make the beaded glasses holders for other people since I have to wear my glasses to see. Isn’t one of the prerogatives of being a librarian the ability to spell? Don’t forge I am a card carrying member of bad sellers of t he world untie.

            pre·rog·a·tive
            [prəˈräɡədiv]
            NOUN
            a right or privilege exclusive to a particular individual or class:
            “owning an automobile was still the prerogative of the rich”
            synonyms: entitlement · right · privilege · advantage · due · birthright

            Liked by 5 people

          • jlynnbyrd says:

            Hired! 🙂

            Liked by 4 people

          • deereverywhere says:

            Salary negation: one Hail Mary per week?

            Liked by 3 people

          • deereverywhere says:

            😇🐑🐏

            Liked by 3 people

        • Snowy Owl says:

          Sing a song of sixpence,
          A pocket full of rye,
          Four and twenty Dove chicks
          Baked in a pie.

          When the pie was opened
          The birds began to fly
          Wasn’t that a dainty dish
          To set before the guy?

          Doug was in the back yard
          Counting out his money,
          His wife was in the parlor
          Eating squirrels and honey,

          MP was in the garden
          Cleaning up the hose.
          Along came a Mourning Dove
          And pooped on his nose.

          Liked by 3 people

      • Joj says:

        Aric, YD says, “as very, very few couples in such irregular situations are desirous of the Spiritual Life that AL would intend in those situations.” AL lays out particular conditions for discerning that require honesty and good-will, and few D&R’s fit that bill. There is no such thing as Sacraments on Demand for obstinate sinners here.

        Liked by 2 people

        • YongDuk says:

          Ok… very nice and an insight right on track, Joj, but keep going…

          Liked by 2 people

        • aric says:

          Thank you for that clarification — maybe Yong Duk’s left hand wrote the original post and when i asked for him to expand on it and answer several questions… his right hand was the one responding and thus not as clearly as you have. that’s a kind hearted joke not being sarcastic YD
          While i certainly believe AL was not intended by Pope Francis to allow for Sacraments on Demand for obstinate sinners, that could be the risk of things if there is no clarification coming as Schneider suggests is urgently needed.

          As it stands now, there is greater risk for the laity to get the wrong ideas and thus,even greater pressure will be placed on those Priests and Bishops that are faithful to Magesterial teachings than there is for people to read AL and come to the same understanding that many have here. Nothing has changed – Pope just wants the clergy to be more proactive in going after the lost sheep.

          I will look over AL further but i did not find it to contain the clear particular conditions for discerning that require honesty and good-will on the part of D & R’s as you have.

          thanks again

          Liked by 1 person

          • YongDuk says:

            Aric, in terms of your sentence, “As it stands now, there is greater risk for the laity to get the wrong ideas”:, forgive me, but my reading of AL has been consistent and unconfused: the Title of Chapter 8 tells the Clergy and Laity for whom and what the purpose of that section is.

            It clearly intends that it is for the Clergy in their PASTORAL role to accompany, discern and integrate weakness (my statement does not mean to limit the help of the Laity in this, of course). I don’t see the same grounds for confusion given this fact–but I do understand how some can be confused for certain in that this fact has hardly been focused on! (Likewise, I see how both the “Right” and the “Left” have been reactionary and rash in not taking the time to discern … oh my blood pressure, I am going to stroke out.)

            Ponder the Headings:

            Chapter Eight
            ACCOMPANYING, DISCERNING AND INTEGRATING WEAKNESS [291-292] .221
            Gradualness in pastoralcare [293-295] .222
            The discernment of “irregular” situations [296-300] ………….225
            Mitigating factors in pastoral discernment[301-303] ………….232
            Rules and discernment [304-306] . . . .235
            The logic of pastoral mercy [307-312] . .238

            Liked by 1 person

          • Aric says:

            Your reading as cleary unambiguous is the minority…i will reread the sections you suggest to see if i can come to the same understanding. As it stands now i feel like it would be better if you would answer questions more directly and not so philosophically…i ask direct qyestions hoping for direct answers. As example..i quoted schneider and ask do you agree with his assessment. Dan lynch puts in multiple points that refute your idea that their is little problematic with al and you do not refute by point but rather wax pholosophic and ask us to ponder….just answer directly please.

            Like

          • YongDuk says:

            P.S. Aric, I replied to you when you first posted under ARIC AERTS, including covering this.

            I sincerely placed this in terms of the Pastoral Situation that I listed above.

            Take some time to ponder and think through my post from a few minutes ago and why I linked it to the Pastoral Situation which I did.

            pax. finis.

            Like

          • Aric says:

            Did i really post under my full name…thats weird of me…

            Liked by 1 person

          • Joj says:

            I’m thinking of paragraph 300. For example: “For this discernment to happen, the following conditions must necessarily be present: humility, discretion and love for the Church and her teaching, in a sincere search for God’s will and a desire to make a more perfect response to it.”

            Liked by 2 people

          • Mick says:

            Aric, yes; you did in fact post under your real name. That’s how I knew who you were. Rather serendipitous, it seems to me. 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          • Aric says:

            what a silly goose to use both my names… oh well

            Liked by 1 person

          • jlynnbyrd says:

            Aric, all along I have used all three of my names ~ Jen 😀

            **Now my confirmation name, Joan, I keep shielded.

            Liked by 1 person

          • joj says:

            Aric and all, I was thinking that it is worthwhile to post here what Janet brought up on another page. This is from Pope Benedict XVI’s 2011 republished essay, “On the Pastoral Care of the Divorced and Remarried”. He gives two cases which needed to be studied further regarding the divorced and remarried. One is the validity of such a marriage, and whether conscience can be a judge. The other is whether a marriage without faith is a sacrament.

            “If the prior marriage of two divorced and remarried members of the faithful was valid, under no circumstances can their new union be considered lawful and therefore reception of the sacraments is intrinsically impossible. The conscience of the individual is bound to this norm without exception.
            …However the Church has the authority to clarify those conditions which must be fulfilled for a marriage to be considered indissoluble according to the sense of Jesus’ teaching. … Since marriage has a fundamental public ecclesial character … marital cases must be resolved in the external forum.
            … Admittedly, it cannot be excluded that mistakes occur in marriage cases…Here it seems that the application of *epikeia in the internal forum* is not automatically excluded from the outset… Some theologians are of the opinion that the faithful ought to adhere strictly even in the internal forum to juridical decisions which they believe to be false. Others maintain that exceptions are possible here in the internal forum, because the juridical forum does not deal with norms of divine law, but rather with norms of ecclesiastical law. This question, however, demands further study and clarification.

            …Further study is required, however, concerning the question of whether non-believing Christians — baptized persons who never or who no longer believe in God — can truly enter into a sacramental marriage. In other words, it needs to be clarified whether every marriage between two baptized persons is ipso facto a sacramental marriage. In fact, the Code states that only a “valid” marriage between baptized persons is at the same time a sacrament (cf. cic, can. 1055, § 2). Faith belongs to the essence of the sacrament; what remains to be clarified is the juridical question of what evidence of the “absence of faith” would have as a consequence that the sacrament does not come into being.”
            http://www.osservatoreromano.va/en/news/the-pastoral-approach-to-marriage-must-be-founded-#.UulAWPZ21dg

            This gives some precedent for what Pope Francis says about conscience in Amoris Laetitia, consistent with the doctrine of indissolubility.

            Liked by 2 people

          • YongDuk says:

            My direct answer:

            I find you arrogant, I find you to be Tubalcain to Cain. Canaan to Ham.

            Repent and stand humbly before the Lord. You have Faustina as your hope.

            Write to the Pope and tell him to answer you directly!

            I gave you Kernals of Wisdom to start discerning, but you preferred your Pride in thinking you know from the paltry research you have done.

            Charlie, post as is. I have spoken, as I have written.

            These are after all the Days of the Threshing.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Aric says:

            Surely u jest
            Still no direct answers to direct questions…still no direct answers to dan lynch’s submission
            But that is okay…sorry i could not make the connexion…er i mean connection between your kernels. I just must be too prideful..which is evident in most of my postings where i am always stating how things are vs using verbage like….i think or…seems like….or…this is how i see it
            I guess i am just not use to paedology..er i mean pedology as wise as yours….and so ipso facto i find myself humbled to the confessional…if only my Luciferian pride will allow me to. What i have written i have written

            Like

          • Joj says:

            Ad hominem, your Grace.
            With respect, some of us have analytical minds that need a linear approach to understand, like St. Thomas, and that is not a discredit to your approach, YD. We all have different gifts. 🙂

            Liked by 2 people

          • Beckita says:

            You make a fine point here, Joj. God does, indeed, wire heads differently with different styles, strengths and struggles in learning and, thereby, processing information. (I have seen tremendous variety in my 30+ years in educating children during their tender and very important beginning years of development.)

            At the same time, it behooves each of us to express in terms which convey our struggle with the process rather than utilizing phrases which make it all about the other guy and in a fashion which subtly, and sometimes not so subtly, attacks. Something like, “I’m having a difficult time doing as you suggest.” or “My background style in learning and thinking doesn’t provide the scaffold I need to get started on what you suggest.” A simple, “Please help me with this.” would surely be an attraction for assistance.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Aric says:

            I thought I did start out with the polite request of

            I must not be smart enough and need you to spoon feed me if so inclined….
            I was asking simple and direct questions. I was not asking questions on the grand scale of the whole overarching importance and meaning of AL… so I really did not need to be given promptings on ponder this and that.

            Oh, by gosh and by golly…I copied in text from Schneider’s piece and asked simply if YD agreed with those copied in texts.
            A simple Yes or Yes with caveats or No would have sufficed. And having answered my questions ( not trying to answer questions that I was not posing) I would have been more than happy if he had followed up with — these are my caveats or my reasons for why I do not agree but please ponder this or that to get to an understanding of why I have caveats or do not agree at all.

            “In Academia, one wants to step into the doctoral or post-doctoral areas…”,
            “…you better believe that their post-doc time or their doctoral student times are on the line ”

            That is a little over the top — we are on a blog— yes certainly one of greater importance than say a blog discussing the tv series Lost, but a blog nonetheless.
            “Aric, I am responsible for Souls. Charlie put me here in the Matrix of this Blog akin to Tron. I am responsible. ” – YD

            That is wonderful and he does a fine job of it generally– even when he is mostly here for .. I do not have Charlie’s words entirely but it was something along the lines of finding it relaxing and a way to get away from your daily grind– hopefully I did not mess that up too much.

            But if I get much more of this Pastoral Care from YD – I might … “I start to question 1. the intention of the person; 2. the fortitude of the person; 3. the capabilities of the person. ”

            The world is going to come crashing down in what, 6 – 12 months ?

            We should be allowed to expect clarity and directedness on this site.

            from Joj to me in another posting>>
            ” I direct this to you, too, Aric. We mustn’t demand from people what they don’t have (or for that matter, what they rightfully refrain from giving.”
            I appreciate your even handedness JoJ that you have rightfully applied to my intent in my posts. Respectfully, I think I think we should be allowed to expect others to be able to change their Paedogogy ( is that a UK or ? alternative spelling to pedagogy?) to help others out of their moral and intellectual morass that they believe we are in–
            No ?
            Especially from one who is as skilled and educated as YD

            Like

          • Beckita says:

            Aric, the anger is steaming right out of the computer. I’m responding to your comment since you’ve placed it after my own comment. I wonder what the goal of this tirade might be. I offer some questions not to answer me, but rather for your own reflection.

            Are you interested in creating a bridge or simply retaliating? Can you examine your own words which led to the strong response fromYD? Are you aware you’re exerting an attempt to control the interaction by demanding that YD answer you in a way *you* deem fitting? Do you really wish to cast aspersions on a Bishop of the Church in such inflammatory terms?

            I stand by the observation made this morning: “At the same time, it behooves each of us to express in terms which convey our struggle with the process rather than utilizing phrases which make it all about the other guy and in a fashion which subtly, and sometimes not so subtly, attacks.”

            Like

          • Aric says:

            Beckita,

            I’m responding to your comment since you’ve placed it after my own comment. >> I did so because I thought your comment to Joj was referencing my interactions with YD and that I had not asked politely for help.
            I wonder what the goal of this tirade might be. >>> If this is what you consider a tirade, I wonder what relatively tranquil school or schools in which you were privileged to teach.
            I offer some questions not to answer me, but rather for your own reflection. >>> I did reflect on them and tried to review my earliest comments to see where I said anything not polite. I paraphrased what I said about myself being not smart enough to get in and so need to be spoon fed if YD so inclined. So as you ( in my opinion) made an incorrect assertion that I should have started out nicely instead of attacking subtly and not so subtly – I felt it warrant a response from me.

            Are you interested in creating a bridge or simply retaliating?
            a bridge
            Can you examine your own words which led to the strong response from YD? >> To that extent that I could examine my own words– I had a hard time keeping track of all of his strong responses that were of course ONLY as a result of my responses that were so uncalled for – and so I had trouble trying to see what response of mine he might have been responding to. Our back and forth carried across more than one person’s posts
            Now, having said that – maybe I missed something that I said that should have provoked anyone – but I just am not seeing what it was. I suppose we could continue this and you could copy in what you thought was so bad. I could review and would either see your point and apologize or try to defend that particular comment.

            Are you aware you’re exerting an attempt to control the interaction by demanding that YD answer you in a way *you* deem fitting? >> Again, maybe I missed where I demanded he answer how “I” deem fitting. I have reviewed things that best I can and see where I asked him to please answer directly my questions more simply and directly.
            But to answer the main point of your question– YES I am aware I was attempting to control the interaction — I asked certain questions that he did not answer or if he did – not in a way I could understand. So Yes I was attempting to control things so I could get answers to my questions in a manner that I could understand.

            Do you really wish to cast aspersions on a Bishop of the Church in such inflammatory terms?
            Certainly not — what aspersions did I cast on the Bishop— what were the inflammatory terms ?

            Like

          • Beckita says:

            Aric, I hesitate to respond because the wheels of communication are rolling nicely. At the same time, I respect that you have asked questions and deserve to be answered, not ignored.

            What I perceived in your comment yesterday was a snarly style of expressing. You asked what kind of aspersion was cast and these lines I found to be inflammatory, as they insinuate that YD be questioned in these ways: “But if I get much more of this Pastoral Care from YD – I might … “I start to question 1. the intention of the person; 2. the fortitude of the person; 3. the capabilities of the person. ” Very strong words. Please forgive me if I have misread you.

            You are correct that we could readily get into a blow for blow exchange which would be pointless, wouldn’t it? The questions I posed were honestly for your own reflection. I surely don’t profess to be a mind reader, but I do often think of a few lines from a hymn in the Divine Office:
            We all have secret fears to face,
            Our minds and motives to amend.

            We ALL have minds and motives to amend. Me too!!! How can we, unless we take a moment’s breath to reflect about our own part in a conflict? That’s what I was inviting, Aric. I’m glad you are here. God bless you and all NRSteppers!

            Liked by 1 person

          • Aric says:

            Beckita

            thanks for responding

            Very strong words. Please forgive me if I have misread you.
            Yes strong, but I was using the exact words the YD used in reference to people who were posting on this blog in the manner that I was posting. So I considered it balanced.

            You are correct that we could readily get into a blow for blow exchange which would be pointless, wouldn’t it?

            I am more than ready to not extend this any further.

            Thank you for your kind words, thoughts, and prayers.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Joj says:

            “I think we should be allowed to expect others to be able to change their Paedogogy… no?”
            The short answer is no, Aric. We have the right to post our sincere questions as long as Mr. Charlie so graciously allows, and we can hope for others to graciously respond. But no, we can’t “expect” answers, and certainly can’t “expect” someone to change their pedagogical methods. Those can run as deeply as personality! And though I know you are not intending it, to make demands after someone has declined to answer (or has already given their best answer) is disrespectful to that person. Please continue to ask questions, you have great questions, and certainly follow up with clarifying questions, but let it go when someone chooses not to answer. I am pretty obtuse to social norms, but that is what I would advise. 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          • Aric says:

            Thank you Joj for your response. I am not in agreement with not being able to change teaching methods, but I will not belabor the point further.
            Thank you and God Bless

            Liked by 1 person

          • Snowy Owl says:

            Yong Duk, you remind me very much of my SD in how you handle souls!

            Liked by 1 person

          • YongDuk says:

            Allow me to respond, Joj.

            I agree.

            However, when I was teaching post-docs (I stated elsewhere about Ivy League), I sent them back to the bench or the library many a time to gather more data.

            I am extremely scientific, extremely analytical, having some Pontifical degree(s), a post-doc, a doctorate.

            That doesn’t mean I spoon feed. I have been patient. I am patient with my fellow Bishops. Etc.

            Now, it may be the Holy Spirit’s Fault. It may be mine. But as soon as I read Chapter 8, I understood exactly what the Pope meant and I understood it in terms of JPII and Benedict XVI–I am no liberal.

            So, if someone several times asks me, asks me, asks me and I tell them to go back to the bench or laboratory, you better believe that their post-doc time or their doctoral student times are on the line (in jeopardy/limited if they don’t shape up). I have high expectations if one shows themselves to have the capabilities/fundamentals, as you yourself can attest in some of my responses to you.

            Oh, I will support you with your discoveries and steer you, but if you persist despite my telling you to go back and do some more research, I start to question 1. the intention of the person; 2. the fortitude of the person; 3. the capabilities of the person.

            In Academia, one wants to step into the doctoral or post-doctoral areas, do you not think there are demands on them?

            Am I unfair?

            No. St. Thomas’ mind was much less “linear” than you posit, Joj, as I have said before regarding his Platonic influences, and you understood that.

            So the Pope–and I admitted that I missed his Paedogogy even when my friend from Australia pointed it out to me 2 years ago–has his Paedogogy.

            How long has AL been out?

            Has there been a clarification yet?

            Could it be that???

            And when one comes out… It could be that it was the right time after the Post-Docs did their best, with the Doctoral Students, etc.

            Liked by 3 people

          • charliej373 says:

            I love that you note that St. Thomas mind was much less linear than most people think. When I was reading him seriously, I was amazed at how broad and deep he was…at how he would argue with people from THEIR terms, show them the contradictions, then move back into solid logic. This was powerful, charitable, and effective. It amazed me that St. Thomas, himself, was so broad and deep when I have encountered so many (who think themselves Thomists) who are singularly narrow and pedantic.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Joj says:

            Wow, Mr. Charlie, sounds like you have a bone to pick with Thomists! I don’t blame you. While some of my best friends are Thomists, some of my worst enemies are Thomists, too! LOL But I exaggerate. My worst enemies are the devil and his minions.

            You are right about St. Thomas. He was amazing. Not only a great mind, but humble, kind, and many of his insights came from St. Paul himself or from the Blessed Sacrament. I cannot hope to come even close to his broad understanding. My mind is very little and I admit, narrow! I feel for Aric, because I often tick people off by my questioning, which they mistake for contentiousness. But I am docile. 🙂 Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Thy faithful… grant us to be truly wise!

            Liked by 3 people

          • joj says:

            Beckita, how right you are. Your students were very blessed to have you.

            Aric and YD, I asked my SD if we could discuss AL and he flat out refused. I then asked if he could recommend another priest, and he got back to me later saying that he checked with a couple of other diocesan priests who felt the same way and also that no one in the FSSP will touch it with a ten-foot pole. He said these priests are waiting for clarification from the Holy See. While I was a bit dumbfounded by that, I also see how prudence and obedience might demand that approach in these confusing times.

            But nonetheless the Holy Spirit moves where He will. (And that’s why I wanted a SD to confirm that my thoughts do indeed come for the HS!)

            I like YD’s approach which views the ambiguity as purposeful and goes with that. The Pope speaks in parables as it were, because of the hardness of our hearts. I think that’s what the Pope may have been getting at when he told that priest that no one would accept it if he was clear. And of course we won’t know what “it” means in this context exactly, until the Holy Spirit makes it clear. All the clarity and directness in the world does not produce understanding if the heart is not first opened by the Spirit. That doesn’t mean the Pope is deceitful. It means that he must open the door of Mercy slowly while people acclimate.

            But being very analytically minded I find myself pinning it down to what is clear and what precisely is left unclear. And that way I can better wrap my mind around it while I pray for a deeper understanding. Meanwhile I trust in the Lord’s words, “I have not lost one of those you gave me.” He knows what He’s doing!

            Liked by 3 people

          • joj says:

            Your Grace, YD, I don’t believe anyone here would question your orthodoxy, or your capabilities. Nor do we question that your pedagogical method has been proven in the classroom. We are so grateful that you are taking the time to be with us in the comments section!

            I too am a teacher and recognize with Beckita that different minds have different learning styles. It is nothing personal when some don’t immediately take to a method. I direct this to you, too, Aric. We mustn’t demand from people what they don’t have (or for that matter, what they rightfully refrain from giving.

            (Thank you, too, for commenting here, Aric!)

            Liked by 3 people

          • YongDuk says:

            Thank you Joj!

            Yes, the problem is that each Soul-not just student is different. The sensitivity and alacrity.

            One of the Greatest Moral Theologian Saints, St Alphonsus M Liguori, struggled with an Unknown Sin. Imagine if inflexibility were applied to him…

            We all like B&W (reminds me of the Coming Rescue and the Transformation of the World into that B&W TV Show with Andy Griffith fishing all the time).

            But B&W is not practical in the End. A Good Physician observes and measures, basing treatment on the Individual Patient. A Good SD observes and measures, similarly.

            I gave Aric the example that I did, as I read Chapter 8 of AL thinking of St Alphonsus Liguori and all the people whom I have ministered to.

            Have the Heart of a Shepherd.

            Fulfill: Pastores Dabo Vobis.

            Oh… Don’t be surprised when a Bishop flares up.

            Your FSSP Priests, some whom I may have taught even, could be being rigid or they could be taking exactly the tactic that I said in the beginning: Allow me to be a Prairie Dog.

            I said: Take it to the Internal Forum. I echoed: Take it to the Parlor [of the Rectory].

            To Whom did I say it? “To [my] Priests.”

            Aric, I am responsible for Souls. Charlie put me here in the Matrix of this Blog akin to Tron. I am responsible.

            Biscuitsnita, thank you for hopefully not seeing me as harsh, but being a thunderclap.

            Call it shaking. Call it threshing.

            After Humanae Vitae, oh the Great Sadness. The Dissension and the Division.

            Did anyone ever stop to think about the Conversation here that has been going on on the Apparent Side-Lines? (No, not the one on Thursdays and the Ascension, but I admittedly planted that one along with this one to explicate styles.) I mean the one on Akita.

            When did HV come out?
            When did Akita come out?

            We were well past HV… Prophecy has the immediate and the future application.

            Could it be that the Shaking / the Threshing is this? (I believe I recall Mark Mallett using that term and that term flashed through my head, as some might apply Threshing too much to tares.)

            Forgive me. I have to be far-sighted. If I put out every small fire, I would miss the conflagration glowering on the Horizon. The Pope has to be even more Far-Sighted than I. Don’t think that AL was put out hastily/rashly/imprudently. It would be arrogance.

            He has his critics, but I don’t think many of his critics can articulate his Paedogogy.

            So, for that, Joj, my Thank you.

            Janet, carry on for me here, kindly. You have been articulating the aspects that need to be considered pastorally and theologically…

            Liked by 6 people

          • Beckita says:

            Oh YD: never ever, for even a millisecond, has it crossed my mind that you have anything but the Heart of a Shepherd. You must thunderclap away when called by the Spirit. See, I also know, without doubt, you run to welcome, with arms opened wide, any repentant one. There were two paragraphs to my comment this morning. The second paragraph was as important as the first.

            Better to be shaken sooner, through a faithful successor to the Apostles, than to wait for later. EVERYTHING comes from the Hand of God, both being thrashed and being hugged. Nothing to forgive. Every reason to be grateful for these opportunities. While adoring Jesus this evening, I invited my birthday twin, St. Alphonsus Ligouri, to join me and then sent him to you, YD, to hover and pray over you. Amen.

            Liked by 3 people

          • YongDuk says:

            Joj, I didn’t take anything personally… 🙂

            I just found I kept repeating myself and kept saying why I was repeating myself.

            I don’t hold a grudge of any sorts, but I learned, sometimes the hard way, that there is some amount of etiquette that should be observed even when informal.

            Liked by 4 people

          • YongDuk says:

            P.S. One thing I did was give Charlie when the Document was first promulgated publicly my interpretation via email, so that he might know my bent as this is his website.

            Joj, Janet, et al, invite your Bishop to have a question and answer session for you (Q&A). It may take months, but too many Laity think the Teaching Office lies with Peter alone. It is your prerogative to be taught by your Shepherd, your Local Ordinary (or equivalent in Canon Law).

            Oh, this thing with Aric is bearing fruit. I am going to Charlie-Johnstonise and go about and teach… I have done it before… and yes, Doug, bring your Spoon, I want to feed you–but you have to travel, red wagon and all–BANANA CREAM PIE please.

            Oh, the joy to teach, but for those who have aptitude… prune.

            Liked by 4 people

          • YongDuk says:

            Aric, you are quite articulate in writing, you are logical as well… so, yes, you are quite intelligent and quite able to ply that solid mind of yours and I have no doubt about that.

            Janet, carry on 🙂

            (As an aside, you should have plied me with questions about the Pastoral Situation I presented and how that applies to AL, but you and Janet are about to thinking through that I believe. Sins of the Flesh, I hope, was not an ambiguous euphemism.)

            Liked by 3 people

          • Aric says:

            I was thinking that my questions for you were not along the larger picture of proper Pastoral Care – if I wrote something that suggested that I did not mean to —

            So I was not trying to avoid you on this topic when I engaged Janet in response to the complex situation she presented for consideration.

            God Bless

            Liked by 2 people

          • charliej373 says:

            For what it is worth, I am confident that Aric, YD, Janet and Beckita are serious and trying to deal seriously with serious matters. There were some miscues, but I think all are trying to live good will at this point – and discuss the issues rather than dispute with each other.

            Liked by 4 people

          • Aric says:

            YD

            I apologize for any intended and non intended disrespect that you felt coming from my posts.

            God Bless

            Liked by 1 person

          • Joj says:

            Your Grace, I just want to say that I am truly edified by the tremendous humility that you have displayed in this kerfuffle. More so than by anything else you might have commented, (and I find many of your comments edifying.) I’d say you have won many graces for the NRSers by this act. 🙂

            I’ve started praying for you by name. And I don’t mean Bishop YongDuk. Hahaha. I have felt that we are kindred spirits, ❤ and had to know your true identity. But don't worry. My lips are sealed. ( If I've erred then there's a really awesome Bishop getting my prayers…and I trust God will take them into account for you too, YG.)

            Like

          • Joj says:

            “I am going to Charlie-Johnstonise and go about and teach… I have done it before… and yes, Doug, bring your Spoon, I want to feed you…”

            Now that’s taking your teaching office seriously! Love it, your Grace! I’ll be bringing my spoon, too! Will be expecting meat and potatoes, but milk’s OK, too. As long as there’s pie!

            My prayers for the HS to speak through you and transform hearts.

            Liked by 3 people

          • YongDuk says:

            Blessings, Aric, no hard feelings whatsoever (and I was not implying you were Luciferian by any stretch, rather that you were amplifying. My apologies for spelling Kernals wrong.)

            I offered Mass for you yesterday, May 12th.

            pace bene,
            +not-Joj

            Liked by 1 person

    • goldensun says:

      Thanks for taking the time to reply to big questions. Lots of good-tasting things to chew on…

      Liked by 1 person

    • janet333 says:

      Thank you YD…..At last someone understands….but I knew you would. 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

    • Doug says:

      Seems like a conundrum. I don’t think there is a simple answer. I need to sit in the back and beat my chest.

      Liked by 3 people

    • janet333 says:

      Hi YD…”Oviedo, Spain, May 12, 2016 CNA/EWTN News.- Those who think Pope Francis’ recent apostolic exhortation changed the Church’s discipline on Holy Communion for the divorced-and-remarried are reading him wrong, according to the head of the Vatican’s doctrinal office.”

      http://www.thebostonpilot.com/article.asp?utm_source=ConstantContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Dailynewsletter&ID=176480

      Liked by 1 person

      • Joj says:

        I see this contradiction.
        Mueller: It is not possible to live in God’s grace while living in a sinful situation. http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/cardinal-mller-magisterium-unchanged-by-amoris-laetitia/#ixzz48ZVhwCwX
        AL: Hence it is can no longer simply be said that all those in any “irregular” situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace.
        Seems Card. Mueller has missed a development of doctrine. This is rather dire straits when the perfect of the Cong of the Faith contradicts a Church document! Your Grace?

        Liked by 1 person

        • YongDuk says:

          I think you and Janet need to sit down for a little while too…

          (My problem–Aric this is for you, too– –and yes, I have many paedogogical styles that I change for my audience– is that one has, as I have said from the beginning, look at the context of the footnotes: they are not prooftexts. Most people like the spoon-fed technique [this isn’t against anyone here] and they don’t do their homework. That simply just isn’t how Church documents typically work. Look at the Marian Encyclicals from Pope Bl. Pius IX through Pius XII to see how they build upon each other. Likewise, the Social Encyclicals)

          Joj, I am sorry, you are being too rigid in your understanding. Sit with Janet and imagine a small desert island at a latitude 10 degrees from the equator with that “irregular” couple on it alone together and imagine all the different situations possible.

          Liked by 3 people

        • YongDuk says:

          Joj, you better send Charlie via Biscuits a personal email, I would hate for you to be praying for my arch-nemesis 😀 as much as he might need your prayers!

          I use Tor Browser.

          Liked by 2 people

          • Joj says:

            I thought about e-mailing, YG, and perhaps I will, but then perhaps it is best if I stick to the assumption that I am just speculating, and leave it at that? I’m sure all the good Bishops could use another spiritual admirer praying for them…

            And on another note, just FYI, I didn’t mean to be speaking for you in answering Aric. Just some general considerations about not trying to pressure people into things. Though I admit I often need to be put in my place, and thank you for doing so. 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

        • janet333 says:

          Hi Joj,

          AL 301 “For an adequate understanding of the possibility and need of special discernment in certain “irregular” situations, one thing must always be taken into account, lest anyone think that the demands of the Gospel are in any way being compromised. The Church possesses a solid body of reflection concerning mitigating factors and situations. Hence it is can no longer simply be said that all those in any “irregular” situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace. ”

          There is no contradiction Joj. Just because we don’t know those factors and situations doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I’m sure many examples could be given…just one example….How can we know who is practicing abstinence? These people then in a seemingly ‘irregular’ situation are not committing adultery. “one thing must always be taken into account, lest anyone think that the demands of the Gospel are in any way being compromised….”

          Pope Francis
          “THE CHURCH REALIZES THAT ANY BREACH OF THE MARRIAGE BOND ‘IS AGAINST THE WILL OF GOD’…SHE CONSTANTLY HOLDS UP THE CALL TO PERFECTION AND ASKS FOR A FULLER RESPONSE TO GOD (AL 291).”

          “CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE, AS A REFLECTION OF THE UNION BETWEEN CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH, IS FULLY REALIZED IN THE UNION BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN WHO GIVE THEMSELVES TO EACH OTHER IN A FREE, FAITHFUL AND EXCLUSIVE LOVE, WHO BELONG TO EACH OTHER UNTIL DEATH AND ARE OPEN TO THE TRANSMISSION OF LIFE, AND ARE CONSECRATED BY THE SACRAMENT, WHICH GRANTS THEM THE GRACE TO BECOME A DOMESTIC CHURCH AND A LEAVEN OF NEW LIFE FOR SOCIETY. SOME FORMS OF UNION RADICALLY CONTRADICT THIS IDEAL, WHILE OTHERS REALIZE IT IN AT LEAST A PARTIAL AND ANALOGOUS WAY (AL 292).”

          Liked by 1 person

          • Joj says:

            Oh no that wasn’t me contradicting AL. I was quoting Cardinal Mueller. His statement is the direct opposite of the quote from AL. But as my son pointed out, he spoke in German, and we don’t have the full text yet, so perhaps it is a mistranslation?

            Liked by 1 person

          • Joj says:

            Janet, what you’ve laid out is the difference between the objective situation and the subjective culpability. Pope Francis holds up the ideal for the objective, and for the subjective opens up the possibility that the individual may be in the state of Grace despite outward appearances of sin. Cardinal Mueller says in that quote I provided that it is not possible to be in the state of Grace in a sinful situation. Honestly I do not think for a moment that he is intentionally contradicting the Pope, but that perhaps this is a development which he has unwittingly missed, in his efforts to defend Church teaching.

            It is not that teaching has changed with AL, but that there is an organic development going on a la St. J.H. Newman’s Development of Church Doctrine. We are seeing a deeper meaning of subjective vs. objective sin. I am afraid that this is being passed over by those dear stalwarts of the Faith who defend traditional practice and doctrine. And that is my fear – that we will gloss over what the Pope is doing and not be open to the work of the HS. It seems like Card. Burke has done the same thing as Card. Mueller.Does that make sense?

            Liked by 1 person

          • YongDuk says:

            I am at wedding so I may not be tracking well.

            I have said before, much of what we are talking about pertains to Priests in the Confessional.

            Public scandal is different.

            Please. Pray and be humble

            Liked by 1 person

          • Joj says:

            Agreed, YG. The Dominican Fr. T. Michele explains it well:
            “Footnote 351 follows number 305 of “Amoris Laetitia,” which recalls that in an objective situation of sin it is possible not to be subjectively culpable.
            This is well-established doctrine, because in order to commit a mortal sin grave matter is not enough; full knowledge and deliberate consent are also required (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1415).
            Confessors are well aware that a penitent may not confess an objectively grave act because he has no idea that it is a sin. Now, a “material sin” cannot be turned into a “formal sin.” If this is the case (but one must make sure of it), the penitent can then validly receive absolution.
            But at the same time the confessor has the duty to straighten out the deformed conscience, for the sake of reforming it; this can take time and therefore require adequate spiritual accompaniment.
            With that, the regime of Familiaris Consortio has effectively changed. Not in the sense that sinners aware of their grave sin go to receive communion: this is not possible and will never be so. But in the sense that persons who do not know they are in grave sin can receive “the help of the sacraments” until they become aware of this sin in spiritual accompaniment. They will then stop receiving them until they have changed their way of life to conform fully with the demands of the Gospel, according to Familiaris Consortio.
            …Ever more persons are unaware of that which was once evident to all. With the effect that what applied to all the other categories of sin also does to the divorced and remarried. One cannot fail to notice that this is happening.
            …What is sure is that this document is incomprehensible in the context of a “morality of law” that is that of Kant or of the Jansenists. But it is perfectly compatible with the context of a “morality of virtue” that is that of Saint Thomas Aquinas, “doctor communis.”
            http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1351299?eng=y

            Liked by 1 person

  11. Mark says:

    Charlie given some of the banter on future events as of late I have a question. As I recall you state the rescue will start toward the end of 2017, but not that it ends then. Is that a correct interpretation/understanding? If the rescue starts then, is it correct to say it may take a while for the final completion and the era of peace to fully start?

    Not that it really matters, God’s time is God’s time but a bit of a play book is nice to have even if the ending is still a surprize. Heck, I’ve read a few of the transcripts (scripture) and I know it is still to be a surprize!

    Liked by 2 people

    • charliej373 says:

      The Storm is like a wildcat tearing through your house. The Rescue is the eviction of the wildcat. You still have a lot of cleanup and repair to do after that is done.

      I like to speak of a period of peace and brotherhood rather than an era – not because it won’t be an era, but because the language “the era of peace” is generally in reference to a pause in the end of time sequence. I do not think this is the end of time, but the aftermath of the minor tribulation.

      Liked by 6 people

  12. Laura says:

    Paragraph 298 is the concern among many. Here it is with added concerns in brackets:

    “The divorced who have entered a new union, for example, can find themselves in a variety of situations, which should not be pigeonholed or fit into overly rigid classifications leaving no
    room for a suitable personal and pastoral discernment. One thing is a second (ADULTEROUS) union consolidated over time, with new children (SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH SOMEONE OTHER THAN YOUR SPOUSE), proven fidelity (TO SOMEONE OTHER THAN YOUR REAL SPOUSE IN THE EYES OF GOD), generous self giving, Christian commitment (EXCEPT FOR THE CLEAR LAWS GIVEN US BY JESUS CHRIST ABOUT MARRIAGE), a consciousness of its irregularity (AWARE THAT IT IS WRONG) and of the great difficulty of going back without feeling in conscience that one would fall into new sins. The Church acknowledges situations “where, for serious reasons, such as the children’s upbringing, a man and woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate” (NAME ONE SERIOUS REASON MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOUL AND THAT OF THE PERSON YOU’RE COHABITATING WITH).

    Liked by 1 person

    • charliej373 says:

      Laura, when a cultural-wide disorder of several generations has happened, the obligation is not just to condemn the sin, but to help them navigate back to safety without ennabling the disorder. I want you to go back to the Gospels. Jesus was unfailingly gentle with those who had fallen from the sins of weakness without approving or endorsing their sin. He was often furiously tough with those who were engaged in the sins of vanity. In Matthew 23:4 Jesus denounces the scribes and Pharisees like this…”They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger…” In fact, it would be good to read all of the 23rd Chapter of Matthew.

      I appreciate people working to protect the deposit of faith entire, but it does not escape my notice that Jesus angriest denunciations were almost always reserved for those who merely cited the law to condemn sinners without helping them to come to the faith. I do not want to be counted among those Jesus most angrily and consistently denounced – and neither do I want to hedge on immutable law. But I think a lot of people need to ponder a lot deeper than they have to find a way to do both, defend the Magisterium and bring people back.

      Liked by 16 people

      • YongDuk says:

        oh, Charlie, from Prophet to Edumacator!

        Bless you…

        No go forth and Edumacate!

        Liked by 8 people

      • Laura says:

        “…the obligation is not just to condemn the sin, but to help them navigate back to safety without ennabling the disorder.” We are in agreement here. A sin should be condemned FIRST and then a path back to God’s grace can be navigated by following the teachings of the Church. It is not sinful or vain to call an adulterous marriage…well adulterous. It would seem sinful to call such a union “blessed” or to imply that there is good in that relationship.
        I would guess that you’re a “non-spanking” parent whereas I find a swift smack on the butt the most effective. 😉

        Liked by 1 person

        • charliej373 says:

          Ha, Laura. I have no moral qualms about spanking kids, my parents did it to us to good effect. I discovered I was no good at it, though. It would get me all in a sad funk, so I abandoned it and found other ways because I just could not do it very well. So, in the abstract, I am a spanking parent, but in practice, it was not really in my skill set.

          Liked by 4 people

          • joj says:

            Woo hoo, Mr. Charlie. I’m so glad you are no good at spanking. Another reason to like you. I was really good at spanking but discovered I had a moral qualm with it because of how it affected my kids. I have found spanking the least effective form of discipline. It fails to take into account the unmet need of the child that led to the misbehavior in the first place,and thus only compounds the problem. Children are not robots that we can just program to behave like adults. They are little persons with their own peculiar developmental needs, and too many adults just don’t try hard enough to understand what makes them tick.

            Liked by 5 people

          • charliej373 says:

            Well, like I said, my parents and grandparents spanked – to good result. I did not have moral qualms about it…just couldn’t bear it myself. I developed some good alternatives. I loved fun outings…like a kid myself. If my kids would not behave, I would warn them we would not go on a planned outing. If, after a third warning, they continued, we really would not. I hated that, too, but they got the idea quickly enough that when I said something quietly and firmly, I meant it.

            Once, my son was playing some video adventure game in which a part involved beating some Amazonian women to get to the next level. I exploded in anger and told him I better NEVER catch him playing a game that involved beating women again. A few days later I caught him playing another like it. I did not say a word…went and got his Gameboy, then got a hammer, took them out to the walk in front and proceeded to pound the Gameboy to bits. He watched wide-eyed. Didn’t say a word…he knew what the problem was. A month or so later I got him another Gameboy. Lesson learned. Last year while visiting, I was spending too much time on the computer and my grown son came walking in with a hammer and a grin, noting that he was warning me this was family time – and he didn’t want to invoke this old family tradition, but he would if he had to. Hee hee.

            Liked by 11 people

          • Doug says:

            Ha! The fruit does not fall far from the tree.

            Liked by 4 people

          • Beckita says:

            Love this story, Charlie.

            Liked by 3 people

      • MaryPro says:

        First time commenting here, but this is a topic which I have been reflecting on for many weeks since happening upon some very interesting chapters in 2 Chronicles. In CH. 29, Hezekiah became King and started many reforms because “Our ancestors acted treacherously, and did what was evil in the sight of the Lord.” (v.6) Hezekiah cleaned up the temple, sanctified some priests, and then invited all of Israel and Judah to celebrate the Passover. However, because they lived in such wicked times “The greater part of the people…. had not cleansed themselves. Nevertheless they ate the Passover, CONTRARY to prescription; because Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, “May the good Lord grant pardon to all who have set their heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, even though they are not clean as holiness requires.” The Lord heard Hezekiah and healed the people.” Wow. How amazing the mercy of God. In wicked times, extraordinary grace sometimes is necessary to call people back to God. If we had lived in those times, would be be protesting because they did things CONTRARY to what the law required? Or would we be celebrating the revival of the Faith?

        Liked by 19 people

      • Mary Ann Parks says:

        In the work I do, I routinely have to encourage couples living in an objective state of sin to live chastely while pursuing a valid marriage. I also have to encourage them to trust and continue to seek God’s mercy if absolution cannot be granted for some reason. It is not rocket science. It is love. And people receive it as such.

        There are ways to do it and ways not to do it, of course. The amazing thing is that people are so grateful later. Either they were given “permission” by Church teachings to escape from a relationship they thought they were trapped in, or they lived chastity as best they could and married in the Church and became immensely happier.

        Catholics should not be afraid to present the full truth in love, and one should not immediately assume that someone who presents the full truth is lacking in love. The fact is that many priests really do not believe the Church’s moral teachings, and do not want to teach them.

        But one does not turn to God piecemeal. You can’t be absolved for robbing this bank if you are not sorry for robbing the other bank. We turn to God with our whole heart and life. Yes, sometimes, often, people have not been told, are clueless, or have been told wrong, and it is a shock to hear. But there are ways to present the truth in love.

        Liked by 8 people

        • charliej373 says:

          I was going to send you a note asking you to consider a piece, Mary Ann. I have your reading guide, but that is 27 pages long. I actually have done the same thing you speak of – and with a family member.

          Liked by 3 people

          • Mary Ann Parks says:

            But the 27 pages have big spaces between paragraphs, and half the paragraphs are quotes….so in reality, it’s about 10 pages! 🙂

            Liked by 3 people

        • goldensun says:

          Your comment about not turning to God piecemeal is very interesting. I trust in your experience and wisdom. But I wonder, are we to expect people who love their second spouse, and have children and maybe grandchildren too, to fully 100% repent of the sin of marrying outside the church? It seems to me that they would have to look at their spouses and say, “well, I guess I wish I never met you” or wish their children were never born. There are situations where we may not be able to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, when it comes to sins. I’m thinking of the excellent comment from Mrs. PRO about those who were allowed to share in the life of the Lord without properly cleansing themselves first. There are people in irregular marriages who hunger for the Eucharist but who can’t “cleanse themselves” of their attachments to loved ones that came about from the sin of their marriage.

          Liked by 4 people

          • Aric says:

            are we to expect people who love their second spouse, and have children and maybe grandchildren too, to fully 100% repent of the sin of marrying outside the church?

            yes
            It seems to me that they would have to look at their spouses and say, “well, I guess I wish I never met you” or wish their children were never born.
            No. I think that Neither of those things would need to be stated or felt in order to repent.

            “…those who were allowed to share in the life of the Lord without properly cleansing themselves first.”

            I am possibly wrong — but I do not think the cleansing ritual that was being talked about is analogous to cleansing oneself of actual sin. I think the rule of the cleansing ritual was one of those pharisicial ( I just made that word up) rules that should never have been put in place. Not one of the 10 commandments.

            There are people in irregular marriages who hunger for the Eucharist but who can’t “cleanse themselves” of their attachments to loved ones that came about from the sin of their marriage

            I do not think any of us right wing reactionaries want such people to “cleanse themselves” of their attachments to loved ones.

            Only that they follow Pope Francis direction to find their way back in adherence to the established rules. Not skirting under the bar … but working with their Priests to understand where the bar is set and clear the bar.
            And yes this is where if Priests are not helping those lost sheep, if they are not extending themselves, then they need to get of the snide and get crakin’

            or so I think

            Liked by 2 people

          • charliej373 says:

            I think that is the beginning of an astute approach, Aric. This is a tough issue, so I think all of us need to stretch our minds, knowing that we are not going to walk in great comfort going through this minefield we have created, but knowing also that it is vitally important that we do.

            Liked by 3 people

          • goldensun says:

            Aric, consider me edumacated. You’re probably right. For the record, I don’t think that makes you a right-wing reactionary. I normally find myself in your shoes. I just so happen to have a soft spot for someone close to me who hasn’t been able to receive Communion for decades.

            Liked by 4 people

          • Mary Ann Parks says:

            Repent means to turn away from an act, to turn one’s will back to the proper good. It doesn’t have anything to do with how you feel, necessarily. So a person who loves the second partner will want the good for that partner. Which ultimately is his or her eternal good. You can have the attachment, but not the adulterous acts. One can seek to enter a valid marriage with that person. If not possible, one should separate in love. If separation is not possible, one should live chastely in love.

            Liked by 4 people

      • Bob says:

        And my good pastor once in confession confronted me on my pride in speaking with smugness about another’s response to sin and I was grateful that God gave me the grace to respond as I was thinking of how the scribes and Pharisees treated sinners and I was acting just the same way, thinking I was doing well!

        Liked by 5 people

        • deereverywhere says:

          Don’t feel too badly, Bob, my mum went to confession and told me that the priest said to her”you have told me everyone else’s sins, how about telling me yours.” I am not sure but she may have been stumped.

          Liked by 5 people

    • janet333 says:

      “Paragraph 298 is the concern among many. Here it is with added concerns in brackets:”

      Just before the quote you posted we read…. “if someone flaunts an objective sin as if it were part of the Christian ideal, or wants to impose something other than what the Church teaches, he or she can in no way presume to teach or preach to others; this is a case of something which separates from the community (cf. Mt 18:17). Such a person needs to listen once more to the Gospel message and its call to conversion. “

      Liked by 5 people

    • janet333 says:

      This is more complex than we can realise. I try to see this from all angles..and never ever judge appearances.

      Lets take an example of a person who left his spouse and children for another. Now supposing years later this man wants to put things right to the best of his ability. He now has a new family. He realises the hurt he inflicted on his wife and children in the first marriage… but now he wants to reconcile with God and His Church. He can go to confession and tell of his selfishness in leaving his first family, and be forgiven for this sin. Now he knows he is in an adulterous relationship and must do something about it. ..but what now of the children in the second union? Can he hurt them by walking out?

      What a turmoil this fellow is in! He speaks to his non Catholic wife and tells her that from now on there can be no sexual relations because in the eyes of God he is still married to his first wife. The new ‘wife’ threatens to leave him because she obviously doesn’t understand. Either way the kids are going to suffer. He needs help….where can he go? He remembers reading something the Pope said. The Church is a “field hospital.” Lord, he cries out, I have sinned… please help me untangle this mess I have made and the hurt I have caused

      Who would throw the first stone here?

      Liked by 5 people

      • Aric says:

        Two questions

        1) You did not state it specifically, but I am inferring that the first marriage was such that an annulment would not be a potential route — correct ?
        2) What constitutes ..” throwing the first stone” ?

        Like

        • janet333 says:

          1) Yes, in this case Aric.

          2) The man is now trying to make amends…. willing to abstain from sexual intercourse in the hope that he can be reconciled with God. Therefore we, who are not privy to his personal life, cannot point the finger at him.

          Liked by 3 people

          • Snowy Owl says:

            And some more gems! ✨💎✨

            Liked by 2 people

          • Aric says:

            On question 2 — No disagreement with that, complex or not no one should be throwing the first stone of judging someone– whether we knew what all the facets were or not.
            That being a given that should not be done before after and during AL— I thought maybe you were going to say something else constituted throwing the first stone.

            Now it would be okay for someone to hope and pray privately….
            that if this person was to go to communion it would be because he was living out his responsibility to be living as Brother and Sister with his new “wife” or that he had received an annulment etc…
            and not …
            because, he was just sincerely trying to abstain from sexual intercourse

            Yes ?

            and if he was only just trying but failing — objectively speaking– he should not be going to communion

            Yes?

            Like

          • janet333 says:

            Hi Aric,

            .”…that if this person was to go to communion it would be because he was living out his responsibility to be living as Brother and Sister with his new “wife” or that he had received an annulment etc…and not …because, he was just sincerely trying to abstain from sexual intercourse
            Yes ?……and if he was only just trying but failing — objectively speaking– he should not be going to communion…Yes?

            If he was sincerely trying to live his life in a chaste manner then he can receive Holy Communion. If he fails and confesses and making a firm purpose of amendment…meaning to the best of his ability he will refrain from falling again…. he can go to Holy Communion. Of course, if he was failing often then he needs help to overcome these temptations.

            Liked by 3 people

          • Aric says:

            Janet

            right … I neglected to add the aspect of confession

            so…

            we agree that if a D & R person is going to communion, he is – a)Sincerely Trying to practice abstinence,
            or b) if he has failed, he has gone to and made a proper communion prior to reception of communion –

            correct ?

            Like

          • janet333 says:

            “we agree that if a D & R person is going to communion, he is – a)Sincerely Trying to practice abstinence, or b) if he has failed, he has gone to and made a proper communion prior to reception of communion –
            correct ?

            Yes Aric.

            Liked by 2 people

      • YongDuk says:

        Janet, thank you for your persistence in explicating the different perspectives.

        Would you take up the conversation with Aric as needed, please? Your insights are valuable theologically and pastorally.

        Liked by 4 people

        • janet333 says:

          I’ll try YD. I am really just going by my own experiences. Trying to see it from every point of view.

          Liked by 3 people

          • Beckita says:

            Dear Janet, You are a sign of hope as you minister to people here. You, no doubt, suffered intensely, chose to forgive, embraced the Lord’s healing and your experiences are transformed into life-giving wisdom as the discussion ensues here. Thank you.

            Liked by 3 people

          • janet333 says:

            So long as I stay faithful to the Magisterium…that is all that matters.

            Liked by 2 people

          • goldensun says:

            You have my prayers, Janet.

            Here’s kind of a wild thought. Pure speculation on my part. What if Pope Francis, among many other priorities, is preparing the faithful for what we’ll do when it comes time to embrace millions (billions?) of new Catholics (if Charlie is right and there are mass conversions) in a time of turmoil. Who could possibly sort through all of the individual circumstances? What if people can’t produce a Baptismal certificate or any other documentation? We’re going to have to bring people into the fold in ways that current rules couldn’t possibly accommodate.

            Liked by 3 people

          • janet333 says:

            “Here’s kind of a wild thought. Pure speculation on my part. What if Pope Francis, among many other priorities, is preparing the faithful for what we’ll do when it comes time to embrace millions (billions?) of new Catholics (if Charlie is right and there are mass conversions) in a time of turmoil. Who could possibly sort through all of the individual circumstances? What if people can’t produce a Baptismal certificate or any other documentation? We’re going to have to bring people into the fold in ways that current rules couldn’t possibly accommodate.”

            I hadn’t thought of all this Golden…Mass conversions…wonderful. 🙂 I think we all need to start learning out faith because people will be asking questions and there might not be enough priests to go around at the beginning of the peaceful period to be able to teach the faith. I think there will be many boys wanting to become priests though.

            I do think the Holy Spirit is working through Francis in order to ‘gather them all into the net’ 🙂

            Liked by 2 people

  13. Jose says:

    I was left so confused by Mark Mallett’s latest column where he addresses Charlie’s “purported revelations”. Gosh, talk about one’s understanding being put to the test!

    Liked by 3 people

    • charliej373 says:

      Ha, Mark is a friend. As I said, I don’t ask any friend to go out on the limb with me. Mark has enough to take care of dealing with his critics that I don’t ask him to help me with mine. He is out on his limb and I am out on mine. Thankfully, we’re within shouting distance so can holler out to each other and note when it is getting windy out here!

      At the larger level, Jose, if any of my friends were to say that my revelations were sure and definitely accurate, I would call them and ask them what they were thinking. I think sometimes people want an insider clique that has all the right answers. We have people we respect and value, but ultimately have to make our own decisions and take responsibility for them. It is why I list the three simple steps that are both necessary and sufficient: acknowledge God, take the next right step, and be a sign of hope. God is close to YOU and expects YOU to choose him with all your mind, heart and spirit. If you do that, you need not worry about errors made in honest effort by you or anyone else, for God will gently nudge you to where you need to be.

      Liked by 10 people

      • YongDuk says:

        Someday, Charlie, you and I will stand shoulder to shoulder despite you being much shorter than I realised… And we will laugh. And we will eat Pizza.

        For now… Bishop Gracida is doing “our” work for “us”!

        Blessings and Peace!

        Trying to Reply to MaryPro: Great Insight!

        Oh, if people read Scriptures regularly, they would see a line through History that longs for God and is met with God and hangs on bated breath for God!

        Happy Ascension Thursday for those who observe and those who don’t!

        Imagine… I love the Election of St. Matthias.

        Liked by 11 people

  14. Joseph J says:

    This is an email I wrote to Mark Mallett in response to his latest post ‘The Coming Judgment’ which refers to you. I hope I am not way off:

    “Dear Mark,

    I have often puzzled over how to reconcile your writings with Charlie’s. This is my working theory:

    Near the end of this year we have the start of the chaotic collapse of the world economic order, along with certain wars and natural disasters. This serves to purify and humble the world. Near the end of 2017 the world situation reaches a desperate state that proves the inability of man to help ourselves. We have the Marian ‘Rescue’ that Charlie talks about, which consists of the fulfillment of the Medjugorje and Garabandal prophecies regarding the establishment of a permanent, miraculous visible sign at those locations and possibly more, as well as the ignition of the ‘Flame of Love’ in the hearts of devout believers, and possibly the Illumination of Conscience.

    These events help to renew the whole world and return it to a state of ordinary goodness among most people, and the beginning of advanced holiness among the devout. It sparks the reunification of Christian bodies. As wonderful as all this is, it is not the Era of Peace yet. The world-wide moral renewal is only surface deep amongst many people, who still do not embrace the fullness of the True Faith, and are therefore still vulnerable.

    The Enemy launches one last major attack. Through some sort of New Age movement he steals God’s thunder and directs people’s understanding of the supernatural in a false direction. Only the faithful Christians resist, and eventually they experience severe persecution. This is the Passion of the Church, and the relatively brief rise of the anti-Christ. The Church experiences the crowing glory and victory of martyrdom. Eventually, when it seems that all is lost, God once again intervenes but in an even bigger and more final way than the Rescue. The forces of the enemy are destroyed utterly and the Era of Peace begins.

    This chronology makes sense to me because in order for the Church to endure the Passion with the same faithfulness as the Lord did the first time, She must be renewed first in a big way. She is fragmented among Christian bodies, and weak and rotten with sin. A renewal must come before the persecution of the Anti-Christ, but who can imagine that such a huge renewal is possible as the world only gets more sinful? This is why Charlie’s chronology makes sense as an intermediate step in the broader chronology that you discuss. Charlie has said in the comment section that he does not know what will happen after the Rescue, and that your writings may deal with these things.

    Thanks for everything you do!

    Regards,
    Joseph”

    Liked by 4 people

  15. Amy says:

    I like it Joseph.

    Liked by 2 people

  16. Doug says:

    A pretext without a context is a pretext. Must look at the whole picture of the churches teaching and put this in proper context. Is it about what I can get or is it about how can I love and serve and strive to for others well being? We are all wounded in some form or fashion. May Christ heal our souls so that we me see him more clearly. Lord have mercy on us!

    Liked by 6 people

  17. Beckita says:

    Mark Mallett is truly gifted. He captures the essence of what is causing such a strong response, seemingly everywhere: “That is to say that the Exhortation, while offering valuable and helpful reflections on family life, is a blend of both the pope’s personal non-magisterial ideas as well as reinforcement of Church teaching.”

    Then he captures the essence of the current danger by suggesting an approach to reconcile the differences, so loudly and firmly expressed in the raging waters across the Catholic blogosphere: “But here too is a test: will we face these disagreements by abandoning the Barque of Peter, as did Martin Luther? Will we separate from Rome as the St. Pius X Society did? Or will we, like Paul, approach the Holy Father with these ambiguities in a spirit of truth and love in what I call a “Peter and Paul moment”, when Paul corrected the first pope—not for a doctrinal error—but for creating a scandal in his pastoral approach…”

    His closing, Returning to the Center, resonates with one of the many reasons why I love so dearly and identify with St. Therese of Lisieux: “I choose them all! I want them all!” 😉

    Liked by 6 people

  18. al chandanais says:

    In my most humble opinion Joseph I believe you are combining the minor apocalypse and the major apocalypse. Mother is sent this time to renew the world where all will know she is Queen of Heaven and earth. She will lead us all to Jesus and he alone will be God to all the earth and it’s inhabitants. The major apocalypse will be when Jesus himself returns. In this minor apocalypse we will be stripped of everything we hold dear and uplifting to the point of despair so when Mother appears in the heavens there will be no doubt we need our King Jesus and Catholicism is his true church. All the lies and Rhetoric will be forgotten, the only thing we have to do is trust in God, be a sign of hope to those around you and take the next right step. With that being said I don’t believe Jesus will return in our lifetime or our grt grt grt grand children for that matter, only God knows. I do believe we will live in a great time of peace as the people of the world see that Catholicism is the one true faith and we Catholics accept all as brothers and sisters for that is how God see’s us.

    Liked by 6 people

    • charliej373 says:

      Actually, Al, I think that is what gets a lot of people into a twist. They confuse the minor tribulation for the final tribulation and try to apply things that apply to the latter to the former. In some ways, that is helped by calling it the “minor” tribulation – for though that is accurate, it is nonetheless the greatest trial in the history of the world EXCEPT for the end, itself.

      Liked by 12 people

      • Mary Ann Parks says:

        I dunno. Sometimes I think people confuse layers of meaning with sequential events. The Apocalypse tells the story of life over and over again – all of life is minor tribulation – and it is both mirror and history and prophecy. We will know it when we see it, but we will not know it before we see it, except in as much as we are living it now.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Mary Ann Parks says:

          Do you know that in the debate about whether to let the apostasizers back in the Church after the great persecutions, one of the arguments was that they were so many? Talk about Great Apostasy. How about Arianism? How about those who succumbed to Islam to save their skin? Over and over. The majority. Yes, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church, but guess who the Church is mostly made of? The cowards and the apostates. Those who foreswore and returned, ran and hid and returned, they survived.

          Liked by 4 people

      • JudyM says:

        Minor apocalypse, minor tribulation. Perfect description.

        Liked by 2 people

      • al chandanais says:

        Thanks charlie I agree wholeheartedly. I use minor apocalypse and major as Pope Benedict’s message 2015 I read the other day, linked from this website. A protestant friend read it and said for the first time he understood that this is not the final days but a cleansing of the earth. I will be more careful in the future charlie, there is enough confusion already. Thank you for blessing me with your insight.

        Liked by 5 people

    • Joe Crozier says:

      Please do not take this as a promotion of Garabandal. I respect Charlie’s purpose and vision here. Conchita of Garabandal once said that instilling fear is not the best way to draw people to God. But sometimes it may be the best way to save people. Our Lady never settles for second best. In Fatima the children were terrified by a vision of hell. They were then better able to witness to its existence and to promote prayer for poor souls in need of mercy and for the urgent need of repentance . In Garabandal the 12 year old seers were given previews over two nights of both the Tribulation (man mediated and which will culminate on the Warning directly from God when things are at their worst) and the Chastisement (direct action of God). These nights became known as the nights of screams because of the reaction of the girls. They commented that the Tribulation was horrifying enough but was not even the Chastisement. They asked our Lady to take the children of the day that may be spared this horror. Our Lady replied that they would be adults when all this came to pass. So horrifying were the screams of the seers that the whole village went to confession the next day. It was said that after the Chastisement it would not be long until the final reckoning. This may relate to the minor and major apocalypse and tribulations referred to here and to the Storm and Rescue presented by Charlie who O believe is taking the right next step.

      Liked by 4 people

      • Joe Crozier says:

        The above comment was written in haste while waiting for a patient to arrive. Just to be clear I know that Charlie believes in the authenticity of Garabandal but not in all the ways it has been interpreted. I myself am going though a broadening of the mind in which I am becoming more open and accepting of the God Of Surprises (title of a book written by a Scottish Jesuit and much loved by Pope Francis). So while I am sure of what I have been told I am opening to those things not yet privy to myself but which may surprise me….at long last becoming humble enough to admit I may not have the full story. What I have is more than enough but I see better now that God has no limits to his generosity. He has no limits…period.
        The patient I was awaiting is confined to wheel chair and can speak only with great difficulty. He has been like this for many years. As if that is not hard enough he has come to me with his bad back. And he never complains. He has a great sense of humor and I thought how humble as he submits to all the help he needs. As I put his arms around my neck, put my arms around his back and lifted him from his chair to the plinth I thought, ‘What a privilege.” The debt we owe to our patients is immeasurable. (I am a simple osteopath, nothing more.)

        Liked by 7 people

        • Beckita says:

          Blessed are they, Joe, to whom you minister as doctor!

          Liked by 4 people

          • goldensun says:

            Agreed, I think the long-term sufferers recognize a loving touch from their caregivers. God bless you and your patients!

            Liked by 5 people

          • Joe Crozier says:

            Hi Beckita
            Thanks for your comment but an osteopath is not a doctor in New Zealand or Britain or Australia. We have a degree in Osteopathic Medicine. We treat musculoskeletal and visceral presentations with manual therapy but no drugs or medicine. But Dr Joe does have a nice ring to it👍

            Liked by 3 people

          • Beckita says:

            Thank you for clarifying this interesting distinction in the land of Sciwis and beyond, Joe. You’re a mere ditch away from being a Doc.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Mick says:

            Wow, Joe, I didn’t know that. Here in the States, an osteopath receives the academic/professional degree and title of “Doctor of Osteopathy.” They even have their own hospitals in the US (when I was a kid, my mom worked as an R.N. at the osteopathic hospital in our town in Michigan; and in 2006, my 91-year-old grandmother spent her final days at the osteopathic hospital in Indiana). Thanks for doing what you do. 🙂

            Liked by 2 people

      • Beckita says:

        “…instilling fear is not the best way to draw people to God. But sometimes it may be the best way to save people.” WOW!!!

        The nights of screams story DID plant a greater impetus in this heart to pray for souls, after first being pierced by Our Lady of Fatima’s:Too many poor souls go to hell because not enough good people pray and sacrifice for them.

        Joe, here’s the link which I’ve included in previous comments which includes Pope Emeritus Benedict’s quotes: http://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.com/2015/09/pope-benedict-xvi-on-chronology-of.html

        Last thought for consideration: I used to believe God was sending the chastisements by His direct action. I have come to understand WE are the instigators of them. Our sins are the precipitators of the chastisements and God Who is Pure Love is actually intervening to mitigate because people are responding to the effusion of purifying grace born of bearing trials and all manner of suffering, converting, praying and sacrificing.

        We can recall Exodus 14:4 when the Lord said to Moses: “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, so that I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.’ Of course, God didn’t directly harden the heart of Pharaoh. This expression is a literary device utilized to convey the idea that God is the Master of everything.

        Liked by 4 people

        • Doug says:

          So true Beckita. I would add that I agree that fear is not an ideal motivator, but an imperfect act of contrition is still an act of contrition. I think the seers where shown the pains of hell not to scare them, but to let them know it is real and people actually go there. It’s about compassion and saving souls. If we were not aware of this reality, what would we be doing to save them? Yes. I fear. I fear about friends and loved ones going there. I fear the loss of not sharimg the joys of heaven with them. I fear anger and hatred in myself since I know if I hate someone, how can be in heaven with them without purgation on my part? There is still a great work ahead of us. But God says in Peter “cast all your anxieties on him because he cares for you”. How great and loving is our God! How great is a single soul!

          Liked by 4 people

          • Snowy Owl says:

            Beckita and Doug (gee, I say that a lot in here lately it seems lol) reading your comments- this popped into my head…. Beckita you’ll recognize it, I know!

            “We walk in a sea where all are drowning and where few are in the ark of good health. They are like those about to drown in the Great Deluge who were facing the great abyss, and who married and laughed and bought and sold and ignored Noah, who with great effort built his ark. We walk among the plague-stricken and among those who hide their purulent sores with elegant vestments, among people who slide into the abyss and do not realize it. We are among small worms that haughtily lift against the Lord their foreheads slippery with filth. What suffering it is do be able to do nothing! And yet God gives us the weapons to fight, provided we live with Jesus.

            We must have great faith in the Providence of God; He knows how to draw forth good from this evil. God is not defeated by any of his creations, but rather is He a King infinitely great, who lets so much evil loose just because He is infinitely great and good.”
            (Oh I love this Priest!)

            Liked by 4 people

          • Beckita says:

            Blessed be God in Fr. Dolindo, Snowy! May God be blessed in all the lives of each one here.

            Liked by 4 people

          • Snowy Owl says:

            I knew you would recognize this! I was waiting 🙂 I just emailed Giovanna who was one of the people in charge of getting his writings online in PDF form,which I’ve downloaded…to ask if they plan to publish them into books..they asked us to pray and Yes, but it’s taking a long time! He has some really wonderful writing to read. This quote came from “The Lord’s Battles, how they are won”. He had the most humble loving spirit..

            Liked by 3 people

          • Beckita says:

            How interesting, Snowy. Thanks for sharing this news. How are your son and grandchildren doing?. You all remain in my prayers.

            Liked by 3 people

          • Snowy Owl says:

            Thanks for asking Beckita. My son is waiting to see if the Judge will allow him to go into treatment and grief counseling and my Grandkids are doing wonderful and will know after the 10th where they will be living depending on what the Judge decides. That’s all I know for now.

            Liked by 3 people

          • Beckita says:

            Thank you for the update, Snowy. Continuing prayers for you and your family…

            Liked by 3 people

          • Doug says:

            Jesus is my whole life. Nothing has meaning to me without him. He is why I get up every morning and live the day.

            Liked by 5 people

          • Snowy Owl says:

            me too Doug. amen.

            Liked by 3 people

          • Beckita says:

            Amen, Doug. Amen and Alleluia!

            Liked by 3 people

          • Beckita says:

            Nicely said, Doug!

            Liked by 4 people

        • phillip frank says:

          I don’t know, Biscuits. I think God did “help” pharaoh by hardening his resolve, after all, pharaoh wasn’t a fool to believe he could defeat a god, especially one which showed so much wonder and awe directly toward him! I always considered that most humans would be terrified by a direct act of God towards themselves. Even the simple appearance of an angel to most instills a “fear not” response from their angel host. So it does not surprise me that God intervened with Pharaoh in order to fulfill all He wished in order to glorify Himself through the whole drama.
          Moses may have been the linchpin used by God to help harden pharaohs resolve since Moses was a mere man and one with such an obvious impediment that Arron had to speak for him.
          Later on, most of the nation’s were afraid of the Isrealites because of what happened in Egypt, so much so, that God had to intervene again with some of the nation’s kings so they would not make peace with the Isrealites and hardened their resolve to war with them instead in order to remove their temptations from His people.

          Like

          • Mark says:

            Actually I don’t think anyone who is polytheistic understands the nature of God at all (not that I presume I do with any true accuracy). If someone believes in multiple Gods, then those Gods are not perfect, omniscient, omnipresent nor omnipotent. They stop being Gods and are at best mere spiritual beings to those who know better.

            Pharos thought themselves “Gods” or at least pushed that belief on to others. Given the low standard he might well have thought he could defeat the Hebrew God since he didn’t recognize God for what he is.

            Liked by 1 person

          • charliej373 says:

            There certainly is a vast difference between gods and God. But don’t forget that, when St. Paul addressed the pagans at the areopagus (Acts 17), he began his speech by congratulating them on their piety. So if St. Paul can recognize the beginning of a spark of faith even in those who were polytheists, I reckon we should see it, too. Frankly, I think a lot of New Age nonsense arose because so may Christians have done such a poor and unsatisfying job of evangelization – so we bear our share of responsibility, too.

            Liked by 3 people

          • Beckita says:

            Hi Phillip! Any direct act of God never ever contains any iota of sinfulness. In a great mystery, He does allows sin in His permissive Will but He *never*directly causes sin. Pharaoh was not pre-destined. Pharaoh missed his time of visitation and exerted his free will against God’s wishes, not once, but ten times.

            I think it’s important to be clear about this reality because the events in the darkest segment of the Storm will be hard and difficult. There are people who, right now, have hardened hearts and who, as the Storm unfolds, will have opportunities to allow their hearts to be softened by God’s purifying grace. Conversely, in free will, they have the choice to blame God which can readily lead to rejecting Him.

            A potent influence will surely be the ways we minister to those around us. For those who wish to blame God because they don’t know Him and don’t fully realize why all that is happening is the result of our own sinfullness as a human race, it will be imperative to call upon the Holy Spirit for words of wisdom which convey: No. No. No. God did not do this to us. WE brought on the events of the Storm. In fact, God is LOVE and in His Great Love He has stepped into the messes of the Storm WE have caused and He is mitigating and yearning to forgive the repentant ones who know that they are but creatures and God ALONE is God. We may well need to proclaim that God’s Mercy can, indeed, encompass all the rot of one’s life, bring healing as well as forgiveness and transforming those willing to surrender to Love and Mercy Himself.

            God bless you and all here.

            Liked by 5 people

          • Doug says:

            Spot on Beckita

            Liked by 2 people

          • Phillip Frank says:

            Beckita and Mark,
            No God cannot sin, it is not in His nature to nor can it ever be.
            But on the other side of the coin, God’s action to “harden” Pharaohs heart can be seen as an act of mercy upon him and the Egyptians. Being polytheistic, it may well have taken “ten” times as much as any other man to eventually allow his heart the right temper to be broken. Glass is one of the hardest materials but the most brittle as well. Tempered steel is very hard, but breaks easily under the right stress.
            Every plague sent on Egypt signified a god they worshiped. God was showing them His sovereignty over His creation and these gods (demons).
            In the tenth plague the Angel of Death kills the firstborn of all the Egyptians proving God is Lord of life itself. Was it sinful for God to remove life from His creatures just to be a sign of His glory?
            God is ever new and uses His omnipotence in ways unknown and unheard of by us. In the book of Job, God never explains Himself to Job as to the “why” of it all but that Job is not His equal in any way, shape or form.
            God claimed “glory” through the death of Pharaohs chariots and charioteers by drowning them in the Red Sea.
            Was their death necessary to gain such glory? Is not God all powerful and glorious already? Why not just stick the chariots in the mud, flood the area slowly and allow them to swim back in humiliation? Maybe He had a better plan for them? Was the glance from the cloud that threw the Egyptians into a panic actually a grace from God because they FINALLY realised God was fighting for the Israelites and at this moment the hardness was broken and the Egyptians relented of their sin (error), turned and fled the battle? It is taught that the Isrealites passing through the Red Sea is a symbols of Baptism. Was the drowning of Pharoahs chariots and charioteers in the Red Sea an act of God’s benevolence upon them as well in this first act of baptism upon sinful men, washing away their sins as well as the power they held over the Isrealites?
            Then Gods hardening of Pharoahs heart would have been an act of mercy and grace for Pharaoh and the Egyptians, an act of justice and redemption for the Isrealites and the pronouncement of His Glory for all time.

            Like

          • Beckita says:

            Interesting, Phillip. From my limited Scripture studies, I know that, traditionally, Pharaoh is a symbol of evil. The deliverance of the Israelites from his hands is seen as Jesus ‘ deliverance of us from evil. To my knowledge, Pharaoh has never been considered as opting for good. Pharaoh said to Moses that he did not know Moses’ God and, even if he did, he would not let the Israelites go to worship Him. Yes, crossing the Red Sea has been seen as a symbol of baptism. As far as the baptism of the drowned Egyptians is considered, it is rather hard to construct. Baptism always involves regeneration. In this event, no sign of regeneration is seen. Pharaoh’s chariots did not cross the Red Sea to New Life. God bless you.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Mick says:

            Excellent, elucidating explanation, Biscuits. Color me edumacated.

            Liked by 3 people

          • Phillip Frank says:

            Beckita,
            My analogy is a bit mystical in its understanding but so are many acts of God in scripture. I am referring to an act of God upon the Egyptians being in its essence much like what we now understand in the deaths of the Holy Innocents by Herod’s soldiers. It is understood that the Holy Innocents killed by Herod where “baptized” by the blood of the Lamb through their martyrdom. Obviously, Jesus had not been crucified yet but they were still “saved” by it. In this same way, the Egyptians may have been “baptized” in the waters of the red sea by their deaths at the hand of God. My point is they were seemingly not aware of the fact that God WAS God and He was doing battle for the Israelites from the very start of the first plague to the death of the first born of Egypt, to the fiery column separating them from the Israelites and to the parting of the Red Sea. It was not until the “glance from the cloud” event that the Egyptians responded, as Moses says, and finally admitted God was fighting for the Israelites, that they were fighting against GOD! What took them so long? ( A hardening of their hearts?)
            Why wasn’t it obvious from the start that they were dealing with a supernatural Being?
            So the moment they realized this was an epiphany, a “regeneration”, that this was truly “God” they were fighting against. So they relented, turned, and fled. Doesn’t this sound like an act of contrition?

            Like

          • Beckita says:

            I pray so, Phillip.

            Liked by 1 person

          • deereverywhere says:

            Hi Phillip, I seem to recall that Moses had two more flaws. One when he doubted God at the rock with water, even though God had done it before and the second time, earlier when God was going to smite the whole caravan because Moses didn’t circumsize his son. It appeared to me a non-bible scholar, that the child was an older child like seven or ten. Mrs. Moses (Yvonne DeCarlo in the Charlton Heston movie) had to stop everything and circumcise the boy. Then God was appeased.

            ap·pease
            [əˈpēz]
            VERB
            pacify or placate (someone) by acceding to their demands:
            “amendments have been added to appease local pressure groups”
            synonyms: conciliate · placate · pacify · mollify · propitiate · [more]
            relieve or satisfy (a demand or a feeling):
            “we give to charity because it appeases our guilt”
            synonyms: satisfy · fulfill · gratify · indulge · assuage · relieve

            Liked by 3 people

        • Joe Crozier says:

          “Approved Catholic mystics (Venerables, Blessed and Saints, approved apparitions) throw considerable light on this order, by prophesying a minor apostasy and tribulation toward the end of the world, after which will occur the reunion of Christians. Only later will the entire world fall away from Christ (the great apostasy) and the personal Antichrist arise and the Tribulation of the End occur.”
          Thanks for that Beckita.
          This quote from your link affirms what I have always believed from witness to Garabandal. The minor apostasy has been with us for many years and growing and groaning in its ominous darkness as it gives birth to more and more sin throughout the world. This to me is the gathering Storm. As human beings reject God’s order more and more they leave themselves more and more open to the chaos and conflict initiated and conducted by satan as man is led into temptation and gives himself over to it. Thus we bring upon ourselves the Tribulation. This will bring great and horrifying suffering and terror at the hands of man. It will come upon us suddenly and unexpectedly. The source of this, according to what the seers have told us, will be Russia and a revival of Communism. We are told that when Our Lady was asked what is the Tribulation the simple answer was Communism. (Is it a coincidence that Kim Yong Un has just called the first meeting of the North Korean Communist party in 36 years or that the Communist Party in Russia is currently enjoying significantly more popularity or that both Russia and N Korea have intensified their long ranger weapons testing or that The Chinese Communist Party has all but defeated its old enemy Capitalism by bringing itself to the point of economic collapse thus bringing down the economies of the rest of the world. There is a Marxist Communist maxim that states there is no progress without struggle and advises its advocates: “where there is no struggle, create struggle.” in this way it hopes to control the ensuing conditions or put simply, to rule the world, like Charlie says.) When things are at there worst it will seem that the church no longer exists and it will be extremely difficult to go to church or practice religion. The persecuted church will go underground. Then will come the heavenly Aviso like a mother standing at the side of a busy road. She sees her child about to run in front of a speeding truck and screams, “stop”. In the shocked silence that follows we will learn more about our sins and the love of God than every book on theology could ever contain. This education will come directly from God and it will be recognized as such. It will prepare us for the Great Miracle which we are told is for the conversion of the world. In terms of the above link we have not reached the Tribulation to which it refers. The Tribulation shown to us by the seers of Garabandal is the first of two periods of upheaval and turmoil. The first period demonstrates what happens at the hands of man when God is forsaken and his Word rejected and disobeyed to the extent that the world has done so in present times. As Beckita’s link says it is not God who has not hardened the hearts of men. They, as willing cooperators with evil, are responsible for this hardening. Just as in the time of Pharaoh, God will intervene but in a far more spectacular fashion, in the Aviso/Warning and gain glory for himself in the Truth we are shown. This glory will be manifest in the increase of love for God that the Warning will induce. But it will be a terrible revelation, so hard to endure that we are told we would rather be dead. But the consolation and confirmation of the Miracle and Permanent sign will bring welcome relief…..for a time. From the messages of Garabandal it seems that at first the Chastisement was conditional. Our Lady told us in that if we repented and performed penance and led good lives and considered the passion of Her son and gave the Eucharist more reverence and prayed the rosary more She would intercede for us. But her messages were not made known to the world nor specifically propagated by the church despite the approval of popes and the approbation of saints. Sadly and similarly Russia was not expressly mentioned in the consecration requested at Fatima. Not was her request for the 5th Dogma declared as She requested at the Church approved apparition at Amsterdam in 1945. The very prayer she requested to be made known to the world was altered by the CDF. According to them Mary was not aware that her prayer was so confusing! Jesus told Sister Lucia of Fatima that he wished The Triumph of The Immaculate Heart of Mary to be truly recognized as her Victory. But compliance was ever delayed allowing confusion and doubt and controversy and conflict to enter the arena of faith and rise through the ranks of the Church as confirmed at Akita. I suspect the Chastisement is now unavoidable rather than unconditional. The conditions for its avoidance have never been met. The seers have expressed similar opinion that the Chastisement is coming.
          Just as The Miracle was intended for the conversion of the whole world so the whole world will turn back to its sin after its conversion as a dog turns back to its vomit and the people of Moses turned back to its idols. The whole world, except for the remnant, will fall away from Christ and this ‘great apostasy’ will result in the Chastisement, an event quite distinct from the Tribulation. This Chastisement will come directly from God and its severity will be unimaginable. In one description it is said that people will be consumed from above and below by fire, that they will throw themselves in water that will only serve to intensify the flames. Totally distracted and driven insane by pain and terror man will kill man. The good will be taken as well as the bad, the good to heaven the bad to hell. Let there be no mistake this will be a punishment. Please see below the witness of Akita as approved by the church for confirmation of this. I am not sure if I can copy and paste this without losing this so I will post that separately. I am too tired to check or edit this so please excuse any typos.

          Liked by 4 people

          • Joe Crozier says:

            I am sorry. I have just remembered this is about AL. My apologies but it has taken me ages to type up the above so please bear with me as I finish. (The dictation is not working)
            On August 3 1973 Our Lady of Akita said,” In order that the world might know His anger, The Heavenly Father is preparing to inflict a great chastisement on all mankind…..Prayer, penance and courageous sacrifices can soften the Father’s anger….”
            On October 13 1973 Our Lady said, “If men do not repent and better themselves the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be punishment greater than the deluge such as never seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priest nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will ENVY THE DEAD. (exactly the same words as given by the seers at Garabandal)….The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the church in such a way that one will see Cardinals opposing Cardinals, Bishops against other Bishops. (in Garabandal the Blessed Mother said “the souls of many Cardinals Bishops and priests are heading to perdition and bringing many others with them.) The priests who venerate me will be scorned by their confreres (other priests). Churches and altars will be sacked. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises etc etc.”
            Our Lady finished by saying “Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able to still save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved.”
            These days of Chastisement by the intercession of the Blessed Mother and the Mercy of God will be shortened and I think, but am not sure of this, that the Rescue will be seen to be the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I also seem to remember that one of the seers thought that the end of time would not be long after the Chastisement.
            I will try harder to stay on thread after this. It is hard when you are replying to a comment. Mea culpa.

            Liked by 5 people

          • Beckita says:

            You packed a lot of familiar prophetic meat into these two comments, Joe! (BTW, threads here are quite fluid. After most of Charlie’s major pieces, there seem to be tangents aplenty in the comments.) Not intending to sound opposed to what you have written, I see many of the prophesied details have unfolded before our eyes (You give examples which show this is ao.); at the same time, I take pause with some details because I have pondered and altered the lens in which I consider prophecy.

            The change with me began with this: https://charliej373.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/189/
            It continued with this: https://charliej373.wordpress.com/2014/08/30/fractured-expectations/
            And this: https://charliej373.wordpress.com/go-forth/
            And the coup de grace was this: https://charliej373.wordpress.com/2016/01/08/through-a-glass-darkly/ (I know this involves a lot more reading but I can’t begin to express a synopsis and do these articles justice in that fashion.)

            I am in this zone of “the more you know, the more you know you don’t know.” There are so many intricacies of God’s Plan which none of us truly knows (not even the prophets). How many of the ways in which we have failed to comply in the exact terms Our Lady expressed have been accepted despite our feeble ways of trying? what has Our Lady said/done in succeeding apparitions to coorect our missteps? https://charliej373.wordpress.com/2015/07/02/marvelous-piece-on-the-consecration-of-fatima/

            How much actually has been mitigated? While I know we can’t avoid the Storm, I most certainly pray for mitigation every day. How long will God allow us to go through the worst of what is yet to come? How will people respond? What details will God use to bring about the greatest possible return to Him on the part of humanity?

            Forgive me, Joe, if this seems au contraire or disrespectful of Our Lady. I am so grateful for Her Love poured out in visit after visit to Her children and Her Words ARE important and need to be honored. Her messages do need to be shared and we have often done a lousy job, both hierarchy and laity, implementing Her Desires. We need to continue striving to do so.

            It is Her exhortations to prayer which are intensely getting my attention so I have surrendered my knowledge of prophetic details to God’s Providence and I’m focusing on the Rosary and Eucharistic. YD advised a priest some time back to sit under the 7th station and just sit and sit and sit and hear those confessions. I find myself firmly planted under the twelfth station these days, sitting and sitting with tears streaming. There will be many deaths soon and souls are going to meet the Lord. While I am grateful to know many, many people will return to the Lord, I’m haunted by the souls who are not yet ready to meet Jesus and the words of our Mother in Fatima reminding us that too many poor souls go to hell because not enough of us are praying and sacrificing for them.

            Thanks for sharing and prompting this reflection.

            Liked by 5 people

  19. Aric says:

    coming up this Saturday >> Theology roundtable A.L. on EWTN May 6 3pm EST.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Aric says:

      MAKE THAT Friday may 6 at 3pm EST

      Liked by 2 people

      • Mick says:

        Thanks, Aric; I’ll make sure to set my DVR.

        Liked by 2 people

        • Aric says:

          i did not know farms had DVR’s

          Liked by 2 people

          • charliej373 says:

            Ha, Aric…Mick is nothing if not clever and resourceful!

            Liked by 3 people

          • Mick says:

            Yep, Aric; we’ve even got indoor plumbing. The sundial’s on the blink, though 🙂

            Liked by 4 people

          • Doug says:

            Ha!

            Liked by 3 people

          • aric says:

            indoor plumbing.. is there any other kind ? did you know your smiley face blinks every few seconds?

            Liked by 2 people

          • YongDuk says:

            Yeah, my sundial goes on the fritz a lot too, Mick… Quite annoying and the serviceman charges an arm and a leg as it is usually all sort of odd hours that I call him. We must have the same model.

            Thanks be to God for church bells though or I would never get anywhere on time.

            Liked by 4 people

          • Doug says:

            YD, you must stop calling the sun dial repairman on cloudy days 😎

            Liked by 4 people

          • Mick says:

            Aric: my smiley face doesn’t appear to be blinking. Maybe there’s something wrong with your computer? 🙂

            YD: Sadly, our (very) small town doesn’t have any church bells that ring on any day except maybe Sunday (I don’t know because we’re never here on Sundays because there’s no Catholic church in the town). However, the siren at the firehouse a mile away goes off every day at noon, which is helpful.

            Liked by 4 people

          • Aric says:

            Or my computer is better than yours..nah..nah.nah.nah…my puter is better than yours

            Liked by 2 people

          • YongDuk says:

            I usually call after hours, when it is dark out. It’s time and a half they say.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Doug says:

            Does that that mean we have to put a collection and one half in the basket? 😎

            Liked by 3 people

          • Mick says:

            Hahaha, Aric! I can guarantee that your computer is better than mine! And your phone, and your entertainment system, and…

            I’m so low-tech that my kids AND my dad are more tech-y than I am. Talk about getting generation-gapped, both coming and going…

            By the way, I recently scrounged up an old photo of you, Rob W., and me at some meet someplace. You were in light blue, I was in darker blue, and Robby was in green. Want a copy? (Man, we’re getting old.)

            And YD, you really are a nut! You fit right in in this squirrelly place. 🙂

            Liked by 4 people

          • Aric says:

            I would love to see that photo..

            Liked by 3 people

          • Mick says:

            Aric, the photo should be in your e-mail (unless I messed up sending it).

            Liked by 1 person

      • Beckita says:

        Thanks for the heads up, Aric!

        Liked by 2 people

      • TLM says:

        Thanks for this Aric. I will, as well, set my recorder for it! Oh and BTW, yes, we go meatless every Friday, except of course for Easter week, in which we are still in ‘celebration mode’. H and I just (re) started this practice about 5 years ago, when we discovered that the practice had never been rescinded in the first place! Unlike what our Parish Priest told us that it wasn’t necessary unless during ‘Lent’. He forgot to add that if we decided to eat meat, we had to add another sacrifice on Fridays. 😉

        Liked by 3 people

    • leslyek says:

      We wondered about the meatless Friday thing too…
      It still feels not quite right to me to do too much of a sacrifice on Friday, being still in the Easter Season — remembering ‘ one does not fast while the bridegroom is still with us’…and also remembering That could be used as an excuse for more feasting! 🙂 It’s almost kind of an in between time.
      So I mainly sacrifice by keeping aware of the holy sacrifice during prayer, but not with much formal further observances yet. Probably whatever keeps you closest to the leading of the Spirit after prayer ( with less concern about it than in the dr/communion issue!:) is great, is what I’ll likely tell my friend who’s likely to ask…

      Liked by 2 people

  20. Bob says:

    this was posted elsewhere and may help some for discernment Joseph:
    http://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.com/2015/09/pope-benedict-xvi-on-chronology-of.html

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Patricia says:

    Charlie,
    With regards to Laura’s brackets:
    It is not either or. Just because I am not in the situation of an adulterous relationship does not mean that if I criticize the adulterous relationship I am a Pharisee. I may well be the wife, who is living faithfully, and has all these years been doing my best to set an example for my children. I may well be the wife praying for the return someday of the errant husband and father also hoping that it would lead him to salvation.
    If the Church wants to be loving and attractive and faithful and charitable and kind, and nurse the adulterous couple back to healing, then it would be most prudent and extremely kind to first consider the faithful and often LONG SUFFERING wife. (more on that later). Then, with all the consideration needed, the Church could address the “new union” which we can often take to be one that has been ongoing for awhile. Yes, there often might be new and young children. We get all that. BUT what has been refrained from saying is that the Church would love to have them back and that they understand the union may have to continue due to circumstance BUT that they would need to live according to God’s rules. Aka, as brother and sister. By not spelling that out, it gives the impression to many that wink wink nod nod we can work this out without the brother sister stuff. I have yet to encounter anyone who does not see the loophole there of allowing a not particularly observant priest from doing just that.
    And how to help the first wife, as mentioned in the first sentence in the above paragraph? By letting the first wife know throughout the subject matter that the Church is thinking of her and not trying to help the devil of a husband. (usually anyway). Often, since the ways of the world rule today, the wife has been told by well meaning family, friends, and neighbors, to “move on”. Ya, move on.
    And in not doing so, she not walked an extremely long and lonely road, but lost family, friends, and neighbors in the process especially if it has been years and she has lived faithfully, chastely and still wears her wedding ring long after the civil divorce. So mercy might have been the goal but justice got left on the sidelines.

    Liked by 7 people

    • charliej373 says:

      Nicely stated, Patricia.

      Liked by 5 people

    • Laura says:

      Fantstic post. You described exactly my parents situation. And yes, my mom still wears her ring after 20 years+.

      Liked by 5 people

      • leslyek says:

        In reading especially these posts by Laura and Patricia, I kept getting the image of the book The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne. But in this case it is the enduring faithful, abandoned spouses- who will one day be sought for their witness and words of advice on staying so, by future generations; for staying sane and faithful even when assigned a scarlet letter of public pariah in a sense, for not caving or defying the Church or whatever the world pressed for for conformity…Heroic virtue.

        Liked by 5 people

        • leslyek says:

          ..and of course Janet in these poignant considerations, not diminishing others’…we all players shouldering an extra share of suffering in these upside down times.
          Ya know, I even have a file folder from way back, titled “dddd”, meaning: damned if ya do, damned if ya don’t”! 🙂
          Better to be darned for the NRS, as discerned!

          Liked by 2 people

          • leslyek says:

            ps — Charlie, I also had the concept of being on a short leash, broached by my spiritual mentor, Thea, when we also lived in your Palatine, Il!!

            Liked by 1 person

          • leslyek says:

            Might be worthwhile to add, another adage my mentor had on cards was, powerfully: “They may; you may not”.
            Often stops me in my tracks as I know I know better. Reminds me of another poster who realized her kids’ complaining it was unfair they had to do more than their share sometimes, is exactly right in how we carry each other for God.

            Liked by 2 people

        • Patricia says:

          Leslyek,
          Interesting take and well put.
          If the husbands could see in the cold light of day what their actions have done to the spouses and their children, they would beg for forgiveness from all concerned. But these young adult kids look to all the world as “okay” yet their moms and close friends know how destroyed they are. Maybe the drugs and/or alcohol are not so evident to the public or the road taken is not the road they should have taken. Or maybe they did not accomplish what they would have but it looks good enough. Basically the destruction that occurs when a husband (more often than not) walks out is devastating to the family. The wife suffers hurt that is immeasurable, but the children almost never heal, almost never. So the husbands do not see, in the cold light of day, because society no longer condemns abandonment and the husband’s family of origin often condones the leaving. If the Church gets to the point where it also “wink winks nods nods”, I guess many would lose all hope. Let’s hope not.

          Liked by 4 people

          • janet333 says:

            ” Basically the destruction that occurs when a husband (more often than not) walks out is devastating to the family. ”

            The types who walk out without a care are hardly the ones who will seek help from God in the internal forum.

            “If the Church gets to the point where it also “wink winks nods nods”, I guess many would lose all hope. Let’s hope not.”

            An individual priest might do this Patricia..but the Church never could. The teachings of the Church can never ever change. Marriage is for life, unless there is a certain something missing which makes the marriage invalid.

            Liked by 4 people

          • Doug says:

            And that is precisely why the Church in her wisdom teaches to wait until marriage for sexual relations and why birth control is gravely disordered. The relationship is not tested beforehand and the man does not have to be responsible anymore. BC actually enslaves woman all the more. I fell for it in the past. Oh how deceived we are.

            Liked by 7 people

    • Beckita says:

      WOW, Patricia!

      Like

    • janet333 says:

      “I may well be the wife, who is living faithfully, and has all these years been doing my best to set an example for my children. I may well be the wife praying for the return someday of the errant husband and father also hoping that it would lead him to salvation.”

      I’ve been on both sides of this situation, Patricia. I was the wife left home with 6 children, whilst my ex went off with a girl half his age. I won’t go into the awful heartbreak this brought to the family. Eventually, after much pain, I was able to get on with my life. Despite not being a practicing Catholic I did think that because I was married to a Catholic in a Catholic Church I could never be free and would remain single all of my life. My ex meanwhile wanted to come back, but my feelings for him had completely gone..and besides he wasn’t to be trusted. (We’re just good friends now. :-))

      Some years later I came home to the faith and heard about annulments. I started looking into the reasons why some marriages are invalid and discovered that I actually had one or more of the reasons they gave. I knew then that my marriage was missing something essential for it to be valid. I was now thinking it just might be possible that my marriage could be declared null..and that I could maybe even marry again. (I never did)

      Thankfully I had witnesses who gave their testimony, but what of those abandoned spouses who have remarried and feel deep in their heart that their first marriage was void, but cannot for one reason or another get an annulment? These persons need the internal forum to “accompany” them.

      “Priests have the duty to “accompany [the divorced and remarried] in helping them to understand their situation ACCORDING TO THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH and the guidelines of the bishop. Useful in this process is an examination of conscience through moments of reflection and repentance.” AL

      “What we are speaking of is a process of accompaniment and discernment which “guides the faithful to an awareness of their situation before God. Conversation with the priest, in the internal forum, contributes to the formation of a CORRECT JUDGEMENT on what hinders the possibility of a fuller participation in the life of the Church and on what steps can foster it and make it grow. “…….”… this discernment can never prescind from the Gospel demands of truth and charity, as proposed by the Church. For this discernment to happen, the following conditions must necessarily be present: humility, discretion and love for the Church and her teaching, in a sincere search for God’s will and a desire to make a more perfect response to it”. AL

      Francis decries the flaunting of “objective sin as if it were part of the Christian ideal” and calls for the conversion of such people, which indicates that anyone pushing for a wholesale change of Christian teaching on divorce, marriage, or same-sex unions, show themselves to be “separate from the community”

      There have been no changes. Just a renewed commitment to pastoral care for those who are convinced in their hearts that their marriage never existed in the first place. And Pope Francis reminds priests and bishops that they are to form consciences not replace them.

      Liked by 7 people

      • Doug says:

        Janet, thr Holy Spirit put it strong on my heart about a year ago that priestly celibacy, protects in a most powerful way, the faith of the Catholic Church. I have not the ability to articulate exactly why, but have been pondering this a long while. I think your comment adds to this. I am not sure I want a quick answer to this. I love the slow discovery. I think when it becomes clear to me, it will have much deeper meaning. I bet Jlynn gets it. God bless you!

        Liked by 5 people

        • janet333 says:

          God Bless You too Doug.

          Liked by 3 people

        • jlynnbyrd says:

          Doug, there are so many layers. I had a progressive pastor that encouraged me to take Communion when my marriage was not valid as he insisted God knew my heart. Another priest that counseled me in my annulment was a partial fan of Cardinal Casper’s stance at the synod at least in a sense of simplifying the arduous process. The annulment process and tribunal was so complicated, almost in a tortured sense in the paper trail and governance. The canon law jargon through me for a loop. The findings I interpreted as I was somehow at *fault.* Add to that the witnesses and ex most of who did not cooperate with the process and the unique circumstances surrounding the divorce and remarriage and well you can see there is clearly no one-size-fits-all. I am blessed to have been lovingly and successfully guided through an annulment without being disobedient to the Church. I do think our dear Holy Father is on the right path, all things considered. It is a privilege to be able to relate in some way to many of the reactions to AL that I have had the opportunity to read.

          Liked by 5 people

        • deereverywhere says:

          Father Kirby I think says stuff about celibacy in his new book ” Doors of Mercy” he is getting his dissertation approved over in Rome. Do you have a kindle? It allegedly can be borrowed by you but I think you must have a kindle to borrow. I haven’t tried it.

          Liked by 2 people

      • LukeMichael says:

        Perhaps our priests are in the perfect spiritual place to accompany the divorced and remarried due to their celibate state, a beatitude totally denied and even vilified in our culture. God truly loves the ordinary but He intends we transcend the natural for the supernatural.

        Liked by 5 people

      • Patricia says:

        Janet333,
        What of those who feel in their hearts ……..and can not get an annulment? If there truly was a missing ingredient in the marriage, then it is unlikely an annulment would not be granted. This country has handed them out like lollipops in the last few decades and JPII tried to slow it down a bit.
        BUT, I am not addressing myself to this subject. I am speaking of the husband who left with another and the faithful wife is, well, faithful.
        I know many couples who married outside the church because one or both were already married in the Church and do not have an annulment. Some have the gall to go to Mass and Communion.
        The issue, I contend, that the Church did not address properly is that of the faithful wife abandoned by her husband who is now in another “marriage”. Without making it clear that the “new” couple need to live according to the rules of the church, some priests and some couples will take it as, carte blanche, that they may go to confession, make amends somehow, and receive communion or better yet develop their conscience. (Which is hard to see how they still have one at this point). It flies in the face of both justice and mercy in view of the wife sitting there painfully watching it all. For her to even have to read the “interpretations” of this document, holds her faithful steadfast position (often all these years) up to ridicule by the same family and friends who urged her to move on. It is harsh I know, but so is the difficult years of raising children without a father present and more than likely running around with a GF or new wife. Or worse, the husband starts a new family and you have to watch your own children suffer because the new children get the time and attention. Frankly, I am a considerate person most of the time, but when it comes to these situations, failing to be able to receive communion until one wife dies, is a sufficient penance, but often only sufficient.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Doug says:

          A lot to think about Patricia.

          Liked by 2 people

        • janet333 says:

          “What of those who feel in their hearts ……..and can not get an annulment? If there truly was a missing ingredient in the marriage, then it is unlikely an annulment would not be granted.”

          As I pointed out they might lack witnesses. Which leads to something else to consider… even in the external forum we have to examine consciences. Supposing someone told their witnesses what to say? Obviously they are not seeking God’s Will. I bring this up because just as people worry about abuses in the internal forum, when it is already happening in the external…as you rightly say… “they have been handed out like lollipops ”

          “BUT, I am not addressing myself to this subject. I am speaking of the husband who left with another and the faithful wife is, well, faithful.”

          I repeat what I said earlier….the hurting will not go away, whether their spouse seek help in the external or internal forum. The one good thing about the internal forum is that you are helped to search for the real truths of the situation. To look at the spouses and children they will be leaving behind. A good spiritual director will also show them their own faults and failings. All will be taken into account.

          “….What is possible is simply a renewed encouragement to undertake a responsible personal and pastoral discernment of particular cases, one which would recognize that, since “the degree of responsibility is not equal in all cases” AL

          “The issue, I contend, that the Church did not address properly is that of the faithful wife abandoned by her husband who is now in another “marriage”. Without making it clear that the “new” couple need to live according to the rules of the church, some priests and some couples will take it as, carte blanche, that they may go to confession, make amends somehow, and receive communion or better yet develop their conscience. ”

          Developing their conscience also means they are led to see that they can also be at fault. These types of persons will know that what they have done is terribly wrong.

          ” Priests have the duty to “accompany [the divorced and remarried] in helping them to understand their situation ACCORDING TO THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH and the guidelines of the bishop. Useful in this process is an examination of conscience through moments of reflection and repentance.” AL

          On his return journey from Mexico the Pope was asked concerning the divorced and remarried

          “The key phrase used by the synod, which I’ll take up again, is ‘integrate’ in the life of the Church the wounded families, remarried families, etcetera. But of this one mustn’t forget the children in the middle. They are the first victims, both in the wounds, and in the conditions of poverty, of work, etcetera.”

          Correspondent Anne Thompson asked Pope Francis….”Does that mean they can receive Communion?”

          “Being integrated into the Church does not mean “taking communion”. I know remarried Catholics who go to Church once or twice a year: “I want to receive communion!”, as if communion were a commendation. It is a matter of integration… the doors are all open. But one cannot just say: from now on “they can take communion”. This would also wound the spouses, the couples, because it won’t help them on the path to integration….. He also mentioned that one ” can find communion by visiting people in the hospital, in this or that service…”.

          Liked by 2 people

        • deereverywhere says:

          Wow, Patricia, you certainly have your thinking cap on. That’s really good.

          Liked by 2 people

      • Beckita says:

        Beautiful, Janet. Thank you for your witness and your many perceptive comments!

        Liked by 3 people

      • janet333 says:

        I should add here….. lest you think I am a cold hearted woman…..:-( that I forgave my ex many times over but then certain other things came to light, which were impossible to fix.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Joe Crozier says:

        Thank you for these powerful and heart breaking comments. I have an annulment but I doubt if I will ever marry again. I have no children.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Joj says:

        Wow, Janet. Now I see that your wisdom was hard-won. You go girl! What a witness! Praise God!

        Liked by 3 people

        • janet333 says:

          It wasn’t an easy time Joj. My heart goes out to all those suffering from these trials. I wasn’t a practicing Catholic at the time so I was filled with bitterness and thoughts that I am ashamed to write here…but I came through it. When the pain went away so did the feelings. I had to be completely truthful in the external forum, or the whole process would have been pointless and a divorce would have sufficed, because I wouldn’t have been seeking God’s will. It’s the same with those who take the internal route..they have to be completely honest with God….otherwise what would be the point? I’m sure then that those that go down that route must be convinced in their own minds that they have sufficient grounds to believe the marriage was truly null. If they are deluding themselves then a good spiritual director will help them see the truth.

          God Bless You

          Liked by 2 people

          • Beckita says:

            I admire your choice to engage in this manner, Janet:” I had to be completely truthful in the external forum…” I have always been impressed by the saying, “In suffering you can become either bitter or better.” You have real wisdom born of intense suffering. So glad you’re here sharing your wisdom.

            Liked by 2 people

          • janet333 says:

            ” I have always been impressed by the saying, “In suffering you can become either bitter or better.”

            At that time I was very bitter because of the hurt… but when I came home to the faith some years later I was able to see it all in a different light, with the grace of God. 🙂

            Liked by 2 people

          • Beckita says:

            Blessed be Our Lord and Our Lady Who never give up on us in our process, Janet. Blessed be God in you and your fiat which opened you to His Grace!

            Liked by 1 person

      • deereverywhere says:

        Wow, Janet that’s awesome!

        Liked by 2 people

    • TLM says:

      Wonderful post Patricia! And RIGHT ON!! Without Justice, there really is no Mercy. They go hand in hand. Your post really brings around to full scope the interview that Raymond Arroyo had with Cdl. Kasper on this subject many months ago. He asked the same question to Cdl. Kasper, one that frankly, I had not yet thought of; “What about the wife with her children at Mass, watching her ‘Ex’ walk up to receive Communion with his new wife.’? Reading your post goes a little more in depth of the suffering of the shall we say, ‘faithful’ Ex who has been heartbroken and trying to stay faithful to the teachings of Christ in His Church. Frankly one would feel in this situation: Hmm….it’s ok for him to ‘move on’?

      Liked by 2 people

      • charliej373 says:

        Vivid and powerful image, TLM.

        Liked by 2 people

      • janet333 says:

        This has been happening for a long time. I see a wife in my church watching her ex and new wife going up to receive Holy Communion. She was the one who broke up the marriage though. Better to go to another Catholic church and save any hurts. We can’t look into their hearts and see who the culprit is. We can’t make judgements.

        This is where the “accompanying” comes in. The person is helped to look at their situation in a clear light. This will also include how they treated their first spouse and any children from their union. I don’t think there will be any stones left unturned if they have a good spiritual director. It could also be the case that a person comes to realise, with the grace of God, that in fact the breakup is part their doing too..that they have no grounds for an annulment because the marriage was valid. The internal forum is there..and has been there …for a long while now, for those struggling with these issues.

        Pope Benedict on annulments…”However, the Church has the authority to clarify those conditions which must be fulfilled for a marriage to be considered indissoluble according to the sense of Jesus’ teaching….”

        “And, he writes, the ecclesiastical tribunals that should ascertain whether or not a marriage is valid do not always function well. Sometimes the processes “last an excessive amount of time.” In some cases “they conclude with questionable decisions.”In still others “mistakes occur.”……”In these cases, therefore – the pope recognizes –, “it seems that the application of ‘epikeia’ in the internal forum is not automatically excluded,” meaning a decision of conscience:

        “Those who were married in the Church for the sake of tradition but were not truly believers, and who later find themselves in a new and invalid marriage and subsequently convert, discover faith and feel excluded from the sacrament, are in a particularly painful situation. This really is a cause of great suffering and when I was prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, I invited various bishops’ conferences and experts to study this problem: a sacrament celebrated without faith. Whether, in fact, a moment of invalidity could be discovered here because the sacrament was found to be lacking a fundamental dimension, I do not dare to say. I personally thought so, but from the discussions we had I realized that it is a highly complex problem and ought to be studied further. But given these people’s painful plight, it must be studied further.”

        There is no mention here of any suffering spouse, who might be left behind. But in no way would they be excluded… they too can have their say. In the end whether it has been shown that a persons marriage was null by a tribunal… or whether they have discovered this in the internal forum…. it won’t stop any hurt.

        We will be living in a more peaceful caring world very soon.

        Liked by 5 people

        • YongDuk says:

          Janet, thanks for pressing onwards with explications.

          My approach has been and will be examining that area of Internal Forum, including out of the Public Eye.

          In other words, …

          Well, in some parts of the World, not everyone gets up to go to Communion. No one asks why, no one judges, for the most part. I think that should be the norm, in many ways. If you are not ready to receive, you are not ready. Now, Pope St. Pius X countered an excessive sense of not being ready, but in too many places nowadays EVERYBODY goes to receive.

          It akin to the Gospel of Matthew, again the Sermon on the Mount:

          So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. — Mt 5:23–24

          Individuals should rightly ask themselves am I ready today, and if not what do I need to do to get ready? That takes maturity — including to not be excessively strict on one’s self. (Herein, enters St. M. Faustina of the Blessed Sacrament. When she felt unworthy to receive and did not, the Lord rebuked her for her excessiveness. There is a balance, even a quick Examen before receiving: Lord, I am not worthy that you should not enter my roof…!)

          So, that should be the plan and objective to get people always ready to properly receive.

          And in the case of Public Scandal, but where there is the correct interior disposition, to take it to the Internal Forum, into the Parlor.

          There is no shame in staying back in the Community and then receiving at a better or more proper time.

          There is a shame in not preparing one’s soul right, of giving scandal, not to mention the situation of receiving the Eucharist outside of the State of Grace.

          (This too Aric should take as part of my answer, since the Community here is kicking things around.)

          Liked by 6 people

          • janet333 says:

            “There is no shame in staying back in the Community and then receiving at a better or more proper time.

            There is a shame in not preparing one’s soul right, of giving scandal, not to mention the situation of receiving the Eucharist outside of the State of Grace.”

            Thank you YD.

            I have to look at the log in my own eye and not the splinter in my neighbour’s.

            Liked by 3 people

          • jlynnbyrd says:

            Janet, I noticed that I was never alone when I remained in the pews for years during the reception of the Eucharist at Mass prior to my working with my priest after my remarriage. I felt that those of us that stayed behind gave witness to the faith in a special way. I prayed that they/we be guided back or to the Eucharist (for spouses outside of the Catholic faith.) Each has his or her own reason and showed great respect for our Lord by not approaching Him at the Alter while not in a state of Grace. I unite(d) myself with Jesus Christ in a Spiritual Communion each day. One faith, many blessings! 😉

            Liked by 5 people

          • Beckita says:

            Beautiful witness, Jen!

            Liked by 2 people

          • janet333 says:

            “I felt that those of us that stayed behind gave witness to the faith in a special way.”

            Oh yes.. I think they certainly do Jlynn. I’ve noticed also that when I go to the Polish Mass…( mainly young couples) many don’t get up to receive Holy Communion. They have their reasons but at least it doesn’t stop them from attending Mass.

            God Bless You.

            Liked by 4 people

          • Barb129 says:

            My mom sat in the pew for 58 years while we all went up to Communion. Six years ago, my parents at the ages of 89 and 86 were able to get married in the Church and my mom went to Confession and then Communion for the first time in my and my siblings’ lives…one of the happiest days of my life! Our priest was so impressed that my mom had raised us all in the faith, taking us to Mass and never committing a sacrilege by going to Communion. There is a great witness in what you and my mom did.

            Liked by 6 people

          • janet333 says:

            “Our priest was so impressed that my mom had raised us all in the faith, taking us to Mass and never committing a sacrilege by going to Communion. ”

            God Bless your parents, Barb.

            Liked by 4 people

          • deereverywhere says:

            Before I receive communion, I turn to Our Lady, Our Mother and ask her to wash my face and hands, wipe the snot from my nose, comb my hair, and dress me to receive her Son as she did. I am thinking that Prince George and Princess Charlote are thusly cleaned up by their mother, so I ask my heavenly mother to aid me to receive her Son.

            Liked by 5 people

          • Beckita says:

            Amazing mother you have, Barb! WOW!!!

            Liked by 2 people

        • Beckita says:

          Beautiful work here, Janet!

          Liked by 2 people

      • deereverywhere says:

        Been there, too. Done that, too. Sometimes ya wonder if there is any grey matter between their ears. I did not have a valid first marriage. It was merely civil until it was uncivil. Forgave him, but left him in the dust. Maybe I will see him again in purgatory.

        Liked by 2 people

      • deereverywhere says:

        I believe this very thing happened with Ted Kennedy, and perhaps John Kerry. Seems like they have their own progressive Catholic church.

        Liked by 2 people

  22. Patricia says:

    Thank you Charlie.
    A correction:
    the next to last sentence should read:
    “And in not doing so, she has walked an extremely long and lonely road…………..”.

    Like

  23. Patricia says:

    ok the correct correction: it should read ” And in not doing so, she not ONLY walked an extremely long and lonely road, but lost family, friends, ………”

    Liked by 3 people

  24. leslyek says:

    Today I gratifyingly donated to Relevant Radio with my attached prayer intention being to pray for God’s light upon all current prophetic ministries, especially Charlie Johnston’s! 🙂

    Liked by 5 people

    • charliej373 says:

      You are the sassy one. Regardless, I have much regard for Relevant Radio.

      Liked by 5 people

      • leslyek says:

        Oh my- I was delighted to be directly responded to by Charlie, but not sure about the meaning of “sassy”. So I looked it up: …and here I had just joked to my family about their ‘cheeky”‘ wives and girlfriends — that hey, I thought guys were supposed to choose girls like their Mothers!? Ouch 😬
        Happy new Father-in-lawing, Charlie!

        Liked by 3 people

  25. El ingeniero deTepeyac says:

    Amen!, amen! to what Mark Mallett was written. He truly has been touched by the Holy Spirit and it shows in his writing.

    thank you for this article

    Liked by 3 people

  26. radiclaudio says:

    Greetings TRNS family.

    Charlie, thanks for sharing the blog, Mark knocks it out of the park again with this piece. It came at a good time for me, as I could sense my weakness creeping in on this matter from exposure to too many Catholic and other Christian ‘little popes’ taking the opposite view. blah!

    Also, I love Blessed John Henry Newman and had not read that quote at the end of Mark’s blog. I will use it next month at the national Newman conference here in Pittsburgh, at the National Institute of Newman Studies and Duquesne University. (My lovely and joyfully holy wife Carole, works at NINS and is helping stage the event.)

    With love, affection, and joy!

    TJTM,

    Rich

    Liked by 6 people

    • charliej373 says:

      Good luck on the event. My son was a volunteer at the Newman Center in Valdosta, Georgia, in his last year in the Air Force.

      Liked by 2 people

    • deereverywhere says:

      How are yinze doing up there? I had a friend that attended Duquesne in the ’70’s. I worked at Chatam Center then. You can take the girl out of Pittsburgh but the accent remains. I went to Publix deli one day and asked for a pound of “shaved” ham aka chipped ham. The fellow behind the counter said ” do I hear Pittsburgh in your voice” I started to laugh. Even though I have gone over 35 years! When ever I see my family still in Pittsburgh, they tell me I have a Southern accent. Can’t win for trying. Good Luck!🍀

      Liked by 3 people

  27. radiclaudio says:

    BTW Charlie, how are you holding up these days?

    Liked by 4 people

  28. Mary Ann Parks says:

    It is obvious that there are at least three hands in the document. it is like a puzzle in which the puzzlemakers each had a different picture in mind. The pieces do not fit together. Other than noting the “be nice” type of advice that it contains, this is the kindest thing that can be said about the document. One would like to say that the Pope did not mean this or that which the text appears to say, but he himself has referred us too interpreters who say he did.

    Like

    • Mary Ann Parks says:

      And there are reports today of Archbishop Forte saying he intended it; “If we speak explicitly about communion for the divorced and remarried,” said Archbishop Forte, reporting a joke of Pope Francis, “you do not know what a terrible mess we will make. So we won’t speak plainly, do it in a way that the premises are there, then I will draw out the conclusions.” “Typical of a Jesuit,” Abp Forte joked.””

      Like

      • charliej373 says:

        Mary Ann, I only saw that on sites that have been over-eager to discredit sitting Popes since Paul VI. I respect much of the traditionalist movement, but some of them are way too eager to defame people to support a point they can’t actually support by logic and evidence. If you have a credible source that does not have an axe to grind with St. John Paul, Pope Emeritus Benedict AND Pope Francis, please cite it. And remember that Abp. Forte was one of those who likes to engage of the hyperbole of saying he speaks for Pope Francis only to be publicly contradicted by Pope Francis. It would not surprise me to hear some of that crowd say that Pope Francis told them he was actually a space alien if it served their purposes. Let us all resist the temptation to cite a place or a statement just because it confirms your darkest fears or fondest wishes.

        Liked by 4 people

        • Mary Ann Parks says:

          http://www.zonalocale.it/2016/05/03/-nessuno-si-deve-sentire-escluso-dalla-chiesa-/20471. Archbishop Forte was appointed as secretary of the Synods. He said this in public at a press conference. Is it true? It is consonant with the logical interpretation of the contents of the document and with the Pope’s own statements about its interpretation and about his method.

          Like

          • charliej373 says:

            Well, I don’t know the site you cite, Mary Ann, but I will take your word for it. It is reasonably credible that Abp. Forte might have said it, but it is reasonably credible that he was desperately trying to justify how he has already decided he is going to interpret things. To believe this conversation actually happened as he said requires me to believe the Holy Father is actively deceiving people to undermine the faith. I just am not buying into that without a smoking gun. And the same sort of people who at the opening session claimed to be “speaking for” Pope Francis until his own comments made clear that they were fantasizing is not sufficient evidence for me.

            Liked by 4 people

        • Mary Ann Parks says:

          I neither wish nor fear. I just like to be able to direct my prayers. At the very least, there is serious conflict in the Vatican, and it is creating a double message to the faithful. Perhaps one who is not theologically sophisticated can read the document with no problem, but for a theologian it is a minefield.

          Liked by 2 people

  29. radiclaudio says:

    Enjoy the day. God’s blessings on the newlyweds.

    Liked by 2 people

  30. YongDuk says:

    As far as I can think, at this point, re: the connexion between Holy Thursday and the Ascension…

    St. Luke, as Albert Cardinal Vahoye, SJ points out in Old Testament Priests and the New Priest, purposefully portrays Jesus as the High Priest at His Ascension at the End of Luke 24 drawing from the imagery of the High Priest in Sirach 50…

    There are four Thursday “feasts” in the Calendar: Holy Thursday, Ascension Thursday; Jesus Christ, Eternal High Priest (the Thursday after Pentecost); and Corpus Christi (the Thursday after Trinity Sunday).

    Each then is directly related to Jesus Christ as High Priest… I just don’t want to be making Tenuous Connexions with the Ascension–even though I hardly doubt Vanhoye’s Scholarship and therefore do see Luke intending to show Jesus’ Ascension in Luke 24 as Jesus as the New Testament and Eternal High Priest.

    Liked by 3 people

    • YongDuk says:

      YD, thanks for that further connexion fleshed out in terms of the Church’s Liturgical Life and Cycles.

      I would point to the descent – ascent motifs of the New Testament, comparing Holy Thursday and the Eucharist to Easter Sunday and the Spiration of the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 to the Ascension and Pentecost and then the placement of Jesus Christ Eternal High Priest and Corpus Christi

      In other words, the question is not simply in terms of the connexion of the Holy Spirit and the Incarnation, the Holy Spirit and the Eucharist, but the Holy Spirit and the Church and the Holy Spirit and Deification of Man as entrance into the Life of the Holy Trinity.

      It all hinges on the Body of Christ, necessarily, and thus the Eucharist, Christ the High Priest, and the Church. Thus, there is the progression: Incarnation, Eucharist, pre-Pentecost Events as 40 days of Preparation to the Completion, that is the Ascension and the Body of Christ, the Church.

      In that sense, seeing Holy Thursday and Ascension Thursday in terms of the Day, Thursday, nor in terms of Thursday devotions to Christ the High Priest and the Eucharist are clearly intentional. There also is no need to see any connexion in John’s Last Supper Discourse as being a tenuous connexion to the Ascension whatsoever based upon this, but it puts John 20:22 in the clearest light possible as well as Christ’s Resurrection and that time until His Ascension 40 days later.

      Hopefully this helps, you YD…

      +龍德

      Liked by 2 people

      • Doug says:

        Sorry YD, I’m lost. I think I will go visit MPs posts for a while and ponder this while visiting nature……

        Liked by 2 people

        • YongDuk says:

          We can delve into it while we trek across country to find MP…

          Like

          • Doug says:

            Lambzie and I are actually planning to trek across the country this summer. It’s on my bucket list and we are giving one of our older cars to our daughter and SIL in CA. I will look for you on the side of the road. Let’s see….. hair extensions, crozier, bishop mitre. I think I might recognize you.

            Liked by 3 people

          • Doug, add this to bucket list: Stop in Arizona to say “hey” to MP. Any roadside cafe along your route (in close proximity to metro Phoenix) will do. Just so long as they serve good pie.

            MP

            Liked by 2 people

          • Doug says:

            Lambzie and I are looking to drive cross country this summer (as long as we are healthy and the chaos has not started). We will be looking for you on the side of the road. Now how will we recognize you. Hmmm. Hair extensions, long beard, bishop mitre, crozier stuck to your hand from excess super glue. It may be difficult to recognize you as you may blend in with everyone else. I guess we will have to really trust God……

            Liked by 2 people

        • YongDuk says:

          John 15:17 ties in to the previous versus about Christ’s election of the 11 Apostles (Judas had left) and their Ministry, the Heart of Ministry and the Heart of the Church is Love. As the Holy Father said in today’s Homily: The Holy Spirit is the Protagonist of the Living Church.

          The Holy Spirit is Love. St Thomas describes Him as the Love whereby God loves Himself and us personaliter–personally.

          So we too…

          Thus, the connexion is between the Apostles and the Faithful… John 20:22 when Christ breathes on the Apostles in the Upper Room is John’s initial “Pentecost,” yet he understands and envisions the Actual Pentecost 53 Days Later (from Holy Thursday).

          What election are the Apostle brought into? Christ’s High Priesthood with their Ordination… Etc. Etc. Tie that into Ascension.

          Like

          • Doug says:

            Absolutely beautiful YD (and in words I understand). My conversion started by reading the Gospel of John when I sat outside in the hallway of my friends apartment, lit a cigarette, and read John 3:16. I was so intrigued, I read until the end of the Gospel and said to myself “wow, that’s what I am looking for”. This brought me into the beginning of my faith journey in the protestant church. Everything in John’s Gospel epitomizes love and freedom for me. Uh oh! The cat is out. The chipmunks better watch out……..

            Liked by 3 people

        • Oh, I see, Doug. Hang out with MP because his comments are… easy. Ha! In case you missed it, my last two comments were all about contemplating YD’s recent theme, and I even went a bit further by hiding a code in those two comments for you and YD –– and only Snowy solved it! Actually, no. I’m not sure what I was talking about and somehow it wandered into pie. I thought (out loud) that I’d borrow a page from Aunt Bea’s playbook until I got bopped on the head. Then I asked my wife, “Honey, can you buy a pie and take it to that guy across the street?” Naturally she hadn’t the foggiest idea why I had asked, so I just said, “oh, because I love you… and YD said so.”

          Now I’m just hungry for pie again.

          Liked by 2 people

    • leslyek says:

      I look forward to your comments on Ascension and Holy Thursday, YD, because I felt some excitement – joy – this year about it in a similar way, for the first time. I was struck this year by the connection of the coming full circle of Jesus’ establishing the Eucharist on Thursday before doing what it took to fulfill it ( crucifixion) and then Ascending also celebrated on Thursday: ‘I left the Father to come into the world , ( save it), and now go back to the Father…’ Full circle, and then some ( for us!) Every Thursday sort of celebrates this each week ( mysteries of Light!); now it will look better than ever to me 🙂
      In addition, to think we have a share in that High Priesthood as gifted bearers of that same Holy Spirit! Awesome.

      Liked by 2 people

    • YongDuk says:

      It mentioned John 20.22 and the connexions between the Thursdays. ]

      Liked by 3 people

      • YongDuk says:

        This was a question to you Charlie, since my post seemed to have gotten lost when I saw Lesyak’s post.

        Could be a great article for a Theological journal…

        The nor shouldn’t be in this sentence and perhaps better stated:

        In that sense, seeing Holy Thursday and Ascension Thursday in terms of the Day, Thursday, then is clearly intentional with Thursday devotions to Christ the High Priest and the Eucharist.

        Enter the Mysteries of Light and the Eastern and Patristic Traditions regarding St John the Baptist (whose Father, St. Zechariah, was a Priest) and such Orders as the Missionaries of Charity who observe First Thursdays of the Month praying for Priests.

        The question then is where is the Ascension in the Gospel of John?

        The Answer, for those interested, is there in its chiastic structuring (and perhaps better seen in the Syriac in Chapter 1).

        [Completely, unrelated, but interesting for this conversation about AL that the central chiastic element is John 8: the Woman caught in Adultery.]

        From here (speaking about Pentecost and Pre-Pentecost in connexion with Holy Thursday and Easter), of course, steps off into the Marian Aspects, Redemption in actu primo and in actu secundo — I think in a far more satisfying way tying John and His Gospel to the Ascension and etc.

        Liked by 4 people

        • charliej373 says:

          It is a striking question, YD. Perhaps you should tackle it in some more depth.

          Liked by 3 people

          • YongDuk says:

            Oh, no, I put a comment to you to edit out, but you only took out the first phrase.

            We are both tired today from Feasting –I hope and pray you had a blessed one! I offered last night’s Vigil for the Newlyweds as I was traveling in a neighboring Diocese.

            Liked by 3 people

          • charliej373 says:

            Thanks YD. It was a spectacular weekend and wedding.

            Liked by 4 people

        • LukeMichael says:

          The Ascension is in John Chapter 6, the teaching about the Eucharist.
          John 6 62

          Like

          • YongDuk says:

            Oy!

            Luc Michel, that’s a good start, but how do we know that he doesn’t merely mean up like Moses lifted the Bronze Serpent on a Stake? There are others and they support each other.

            Remember chiasms from your basic logic class:

            a
            b
            c
            x
            c’
            b
            a’

            as well as parallels:

            a
            b
            c
            a’
            b’
            c’

            I gave you a hint with 1:3, yet “apud” is in the previous two verses. Look at 1:12-14

            Like

          • Mark says:

            “b
            a’

            as well as parallels:

            a
            b
            c
            a’
            b’
            c’

            I gave you a hint with 1:3, yet “apud” is in the previous two verses. Look at 1:12-14”

            Do I need a Nancy Drew Decoder ring? Heck I couldn’t get my sundial to work either last night, not sure how this will go.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Snowy Owl says:

            Mark, I have a secret decoder ring, 💍 here you can have it…it’s not working for me AT ALL! lol. I’m so lost I have to go sit in the back of the class again!😏

            Liked by 2 people

          • LukeMichael says:

            @YongDuk

            Thank you for the new word: “apud.” I have no formal training in Latin except for my stint as a preVatican 2 altar boy.
            Call me “grasshopper” and be merciful as you correct and edify.

            John 6 62: ” What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?”

            Jesus points to the Ascension not the Mosaic bronze serpent on a pole. We know this because Jesus is speaking about eternal life, supernatural life in God. Moses is talking about natural life. A nice parallel but fundamentally different. The context of real food and real life guides us.

            Where was Jesus “before”?

            John 1 1-2: “In the beginning* was the Word,

            and the Word was with God,
            and the Word was God.

            He was in the beginning with God.”

            The entire book of John is about the divinity of Jesus. John chapter 6 is about what happens when God becomes man. Incarnation.

            John 6 is the theology of the Eucharist given as a discourse to the apostles. Priesthood.
            Church. Holy Thursday. Resurrection Sunday.

            “‘ Man does not live by bread alone,
            but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.’”

            Jesus is God’s Word. Real food, real drink, eternal life. So Incarnation, eternal life, Bread from Heaven, Eucharist, Communion, Church, priesthood, family, God in man, man in God, Trinitarian perichoresis!

            My heart is full. My head is swimming.

            Shouldn’t have read that last Mark Mallett post!

            Liked by 1 person

          • YongDuk says:

            Nice…

            so that is the elements of the first half of the chiasm… what about the second (if Chapter 8:1ff is the center [x])?

            Anything in 8–10?

            Then to the End?

            (A lot of work, but a lot of depth and insights seeing the connexions.)

            Liked by 1 person

          • YongDuk says:

            One thing popped into my head strongly, LM, during my Homily today while I was preaching on the Glory in the Gospel of John and its relation to Power and John’s connecting both terms to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit to elicit in many ways their Equality.

            Then what popped into my head was the response after the Embolus following the Pater Noster: For the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory are yours.

            With that came flooding all the textual references to that in John (look at the end of Chapter 6) and then the connexion between that as well as the High Priesthood with Ascension and, if Glory and Power is applied as I say, then necessarily to Pentecost…

            Like

        • leslyek says:

          YD — there ya have it ( ya, Bishop!?:)
          Regarding the interjection about the woman caught in adultery and AL; maybe here’s what the Lord is having this all lead to: this being Thursday meditations on our cycle of sin-suffering-repentance-promise of help (resurrected, ascended , descending spiritual help):
          Lately I’ve thought those who’ve inadvertently or otherwise have robbed a spouse of their spouse ( didn’t we used to call this loss of consortium?) should do as the Lord instructed the woman caught in adultery back then to do – to sin no more; but in addition, make amends by praying/sacrificing for the intentions of the one so robbed.
          However, as was mentioned, the offenders don’t often have a spiritual clue (just want communion anyway); so this must be a directive of clergy who are aware of the situation, at first opportunity. ( God console them as they actively await the opportunity). But isn’t all this what it’s all about, on Thursday mysteries of Light and Last Supper Etc meditations!? The cycle of sin, suffering, repentance, and help from God directly or between each other…

          Like

          • leslyek says:

            Should add, that cycle of human sin-suffering- repentance-help corresponds to the three cups of blessing ( the final fourth cup of completion is at the crucifixion) at the Holy Thursday meal; and at all Passover commemorative meals. And all Thursday’s ( fifth mystery of light:).

            Liked by 1 person

          • YongDuk says:

            Sort of makes the Biblical Criticism that the pericope about the Woman Caught in Adultery is not original to John’s Gospel, but an insertion (Lucan even) all the more suspect, huh?

            Liked by 2 people

      • leslyek says:

        Funny each time I said Thursday I felt a twinge of almost shallowness yet now I love Thursdays so much – with all the rich liturgical meanings they carry in our incarnation lives , I hope it’s the day I die! Heh

        Liked by 2 people

  31. CrewDog says:

    You can “Bet the Farm” that there is much angst, dismay and confusion in the Vatican and the Catholic World every time Papa approaches a podium or takes up his pen. I still believe that he is fulfilling his role in The Storm but I don’t pretend to understand it ;-( TNRS is about all you can do …. follow your instincts as far as Prayer & Preparation …. and Survival!!!
    “Pope’s Origins Skew His Views on Migrant Crisis, Cardinal Asserts”
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/09/popes-origins-skew-views-migrant-crisis-cardinal-asserts/

    GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!

    Like

  32. leslyek says:

    BIblical criticism, decoder rings , prayer and Wisdom, Etc
    Whatever it takes to get the Holy Spirit’s take on things!

    Liked by 2 people

  33. Alphonsus says:

    According to Pope St. John Paul, the Catholic and the Orthodox are the two lungs of the Church and the Church must breathe with both. I think Amoris Laetitia should be seen in that light and the very difficult movement both lungs have been making towards reunification of full communion. The Orthodox Churches have a different tradition and understanding of marriage-divorce-and remarriage, and what constitutes a worthy reception of Holy Communion in that regard, than the Catholic Church does. I believe that the many years of discussion between the Catholic and Orthodox to reestablish full communion is underneath Pope Francis’s apostolic exhortation and that it should be seen in that light, also.

    Liked by 2 people

    • leslyek says:

      And Alphonsus, I can’t help remembering learning by what must have seemed to me good sources, the Bishop of Rome is regarded by all concerned as the ‘first among equals’. So the onus seems to be on the others to follow his lead, not visa versa.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Alphonsus says:

        leslyek, yes, the first among equals title applies to the Pope but I believe the Orthodox see that mainly as a ceremonial. Wasn’t the Great Schism partly about a dispute over whether the Pope had universal authority over all Churches or only authority over the Roman Church?

        At any rate, I am in communion with the Pope and, so, do my best to obey where my weaknesses do not betray me. However, the lines I was thinking along in my post are described here if you’d like to take a look. An Orthodox priest briefly explains their theology, tradition, and practices regarding marriage.

        http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/re_marriage_in_the_orthodox_church

        While the Holy Father did not come anywhere near to the Orthodox practice of the second marriage in Amoris Laetitia, his clear preference for a deep pastoral involvement with the civilly-divorced-and-remarried couple to find a licit pathway to grace seems to me to have a lot in common with the Orthodox approach in those circumstances. That was the basis for my comment above. Perhaps His Excellency Yong Duk might find something in this to comment on. I certainly would be edified to read it.

        God bless,

        Alphonsus

        Liked by 1 person

        • YongDuk says:

          Thanks for posting that link, Alphonsus; I will look at it later.

          Yes, it is wise to imagine that AL is written the way it was also to allow there to be dialogue on the theological questions / problems that will arise when Full Union occurs in the cases that you mention and how to address them pastorally and canonically. I won’t comment more as this may prove to be more sensitive a division than the Filioque, nor do I pretend to understand the non-Catholic Orthodox and Oriental Churches’ laws.

          Liked by 2 people

        • janet333 says:

          Hi Alphonsus

          The article you posted is saying.. why can’t it be possible for a divorced person to repent of the sins committed in the first marriage and then be allowed a second marriage. The example given is that even a murderer can repent and be forgiven….the difference is obvious though. The repentant murderer has to stop killing!

          We have to take Jesus’ words in Matthew 19 very seriously. ..

          ” And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: 5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. 6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.”

          The Pharisees wanted to trick Jesus.

          [7] They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? [8] He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. ”

          According to a tradition… the Israelites were complaining that their wives were keeping the idols of the Egyptians and so contaminating families. For this reason then Moses allowed a divorce. I can imagine this would be a serious matter, especially since the Children were hindered from following God’s laws.

          Jesus is firm in His answer….

          9 “And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. 10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.”

          Marriage is therefore indissoluble..unless it was never a marriage from the beginning. “What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.”

          Liked by 3 people

  34. Christene says:

    This comment falls firmly in the “for what it’s worth” department. Please take it as the grain of salt it is.

    One small section of Mark’s brilliant commentary struck my like a thunderbolt;
    “If suddenly bishops, if not entire conferences of bishops, begin to apply this Exhortation in ways that are a break from Sacred Tradition, then I suggest that these men had already begun, in some fashion, to break away from the sure and clear norms of the Catholic Church. This is to say that the Holy Spirit, who has been sent to lead the Church into all truth, may very well have permitted all of this in order to purify and prune the Body of Christ of the dead branches.”

    That statement “prune the Body of Christ of the dead branches” speaks to a section of the Bible that has fascinated me since the day I became Catholic; St. Paul’s teaching about God’s plan of salvation and the Two Olive Trees in Romans 9-11. Portions of the following comment is taken directly from this link The Olive Tree
    http://doctrine.org/the-olive-tree/

    Rom. 11:11-27
    “11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if some how I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
    16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
    22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
    25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.” 27 “THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.” 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

    33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

    In this tremendous  discourse, Paul taught that Gentiles had been brought into a place of blessing and mercy, not through Israel’s obedience as the Old Testament covenantal program had indicated, but through the nation’s disobedience. This blessing was wholly a result of God’s grace. He warned Gentiles not to become arrogant against Israel since their place of blessing was held by faith alone. As God had shown Gentiles mercy in grafting them into the olive tree by breaking off Israel, He would again show mercy to Israel and regraft them into the place of blessing. Israel’s blindness and temporary stumbling was a secret: no one before Paul knew of it. The ascended Lord revealed this secret to Paul. Paul communicated the gospel of the grace of God to Gentiles, who are enjoying God’s blessing.” End of commentary.

    I have zero insight into what God’s plan is or how it will unfold, but this section of the Bible that I have gone back to time and time again over the past 22 years is now pulsating like a cheap neon sign in my psyche. The year 2017 not only marks the 100 year anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima but also 500 years since Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses on the doors of Wittenburg Castle Church Oct. 31, 1517. Hmmmmm…..
    There are these whispers in my heart that are like trying to catch butterflies in a hurricane with a torn net but here it goes;
    “we are standing in the a place in history that the first century Jews were when they were confronted with the person of Jesus. We are standing in the place in history that the captive Jews were when Moses led them out into the desert. We are standing in the place in history that those who were watching Noah build his ark. Proceed with humility.”

    As the Lord said to Moses in Exodus 33:19 “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

    As Paul says, we should “not become wise in our own estimation”.

    YD……..please place my incoherent ramblings on solid Catholic footings if you feel moved to.

    Liked by 2 people

    • YongDuk says:

      Seems pretty solid to me…

      There have always been divisions amongst Bishops. I addressed that elsewhere. Kasper and Ratzinger’s history on Papal Primacy can speak to that. But when Pope Benedict was Pope did he lord it over everyone?

      So, we have to remember, Matthew 16:18.

      But there is always the falling aways, the Threshings…

      Stay faithful.

      I seem to be reading Chapter 8 of AL in a much different, much more balanced way than most are, reading their fears into it… While there is precedence for fear, as Charlie commented a few days ago, an honest read sheds light on the intention.

      Liked by 3 people

      • LukeMichael says:

        I have avoided the kerfuffle about AL. I think you are exactly right, that fear about schism motivates too many people. We already have prominent bishops who say “Pope Francis has created a whole new ball game.” and “what is permitted in Germany may be forbidden in Africa.” The Church is mounting Calvary.

        A time will come when everyone sees their own soul clearly. We will be grateful for what Francis has done. Many people will come home and the continuity of magisterial wisdom will remain.

        Liked by 4 people

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